Shuffle iT Forum

Dominion => General Discussion => Topic started by: EB20 on 03 January 2017, 06:40:41 AM

Title: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: EB20 on 03 January 2017, 06:40:41 AM
I paid nearly $100 (US) for all the expansions not long ago with no expectation of ever having to pay again except perhaps to purchase future expansions.  How is it that I am supposed to be satisfied with a year subscription...particularly since as far as I can tell, I have lost the campaign mode, which was one of the primary ways that I enjoyed playing?  How can I receive my money back if I am not satisfied with my "benefit" for having previously made a purchase?
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Watno on 03 January 2017, 11:16:00 AM
You payed money to Making Fun, whose license to online Dominion expired at the end of the last year. ShuffleIt can't do anything about that.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: TwoWhiteBears on 04 January 2017, 12:35:31 AM
You payed money to Making Fun, whose license to online Dominion expired at the end of the last year. ShuffleIt can't do anything about that.
You guys agreed to make a new client knowing this would be an issue. You don't want to do anything about that.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: tufftaeh on 04 January 2017, 01:03:27 AM
You payed money to Making Fun, whose license to online Dominion expired at the end of the last year. ShuffleIt can't do anything about that.
You guys agreed to make a new client knowing this would be an issue. You don't want to do anything about that.

Actually, they are doing something about that. Basically, they (and probably Rio Grande Games and Donald X.) donate $40 to everybody who had all sets bought on Goko/MF. Or even more value if you consider that all these users will be able to chose the permanent offline app instead as soon as that is available.

Why should Shuffle iT want to pay money back that someone has given to someone else, expecting to get something for it that was never promised? (If you think it was promised, read the terms of use of MF.) If you are unhappy how Rio Grande Games handled the online Dominion license, complain at Rio Grande Games. I actually think that it was not a good idea to ever allow a company with a non-permanent license to "sell" "permanent" accounts. For online play this should have always been a subscription model. Luckily, this situation cannot happen again because now everybody knows that they are paying for a limited time only.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: TwoWhiteBears on 04 January 2017, 01:35:05 AM
You payed money to Making Fun, whose license to online Dominion expired at the end of the last year. ShuffleIt can't do anything about that.
You guys agreed to make a new client knowing this would be an issue. You don't want to do anything about that.

Actually, they are doing something about that. Basically, they (and probably Rio Grande Games and Donald X.) donate $40 to everybody who had all sets bought on Goko/MF. Or even more value if you consider that all these users will be able to chose the permanent offline app instead as soon as that is available.

Why should Shuffle iT want to pay money back that someone has given to someone else, expecting to get something for it that was never promised? (If you think it was promised, read the terms of use of MF.) If you are unhappy how Rio Grande Games handled the online Dominion license, complain at Rio Grande Games. I actually think that it was not a good idea to ever allow a company with a non-permanent license to "sell" "permanent" accounts. For online play this should have always been a subscription model. Luckily, this situation cannot happen again because now everybody knows that they are paying for a limited time only.
I'm not arguing that they should or shouldn't. I'm just clarifying that they knew this would be an issue and took on the project anyway. It's a little disingenuous for them to act like they're in this totally unfair position and are completely powerless.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Stef on 04 January 2017, 01:36:37 AM
You payed money to Making Fun, whose license to online Dominion expired at the end of the last year. ShuffleIt can't do anything about that.
You guys agreed to make a new client knowing this would be an issue. You don't want to do anything about that.

I don't understand why you think that. I would love to do something about that. Unfortunately, it involves building a time machine, going back 5 years in time, and warning Donald X. about this company making promises about his game beyond the scope of their licence.

Do you realize we got none of that money you paid? What would you have us do? Don't get me wrong, I do understand your pain. It totally sucks that you were promised something you're not getting. But I can't create it for you out of thin air. I don't think any of the people involved in the creation of this situation were evil or anything. The worst you can accuse them of is being a bit naive. And not just them, also the people paying that $90 and actually believing they could play Dominion Online forever (I was one of them).
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Angelbane on 04 January 2017, 03:54:46 AM
 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

I realize that Shuffle iT got NO money. However Shuffle iT DID get a customer base, albeit with baggage, and has to be careful of not pissing off. Until feature parity with the previous application has been reached Shuffle iT will not get a penny from me and probably not others either.

Key features for me:
Windows Client (web based does not count)
Campaign Mode
Hide VP Counters
Missing cards (there are several missing from base set alone)

NON SUBSCRIPTION MODE OF PURCHASE, If I wanted ongoing cost I would play MTG


I do not necessarily expect this to be free and would be willing to purchase the game again, at a significant discount relative to previous purchases (this is part of the baggage that Shuffle iT has to deal with IMO).


This being said this is not entirely the fault of Shuffle iT this is partially the fault of Rio Grande Games and Donald X who have set Shuffle iT up for an epic fail, at least in my book. However, Shuffle iT took on the project and now has to deal with it and complaining to us that no money was received for any purchases that we may have made is NOT going to help the situtation.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: jsh on 04 January 2017, 03:58:43 AM
The base set cards missing is not shuffle it's choice. Those cards were removed in the second edition and aren't meant to appear anymore.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Angelbane on 04 January 2017, 04:13:08 AM
The base set cards missing is not shuffle it's choice. Those cards were removed in the second edition and aren't meant to appear anymore.

Fair enough I was not aware of that (I have had the physical version for a VERY long time), I liked some of those cards.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: JW on 04 January 2017, 04:25:55 AM
NON SUBSCRIPTION MODE OF PURCHASE, If I wanted ongoing cost I would play MTG

The great thing I see as a customer about the subscription mode of purchase is that customers know exactly what they are paying for. No one is being promised that the online game will be available many years in the future, which the developers shouldn't be able to promise because they can't guarantee that they will have the license at that time.
 
However, if you're willing to pay $200 upfront for a subscription lasting for the duration of their company supplying online Dominion, they might take you up on it.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Jacob Marley on 04 January 2017, 04:33:33 AM
NON SUBSCRIPTION MODE OF PURCHASE, If I wanted ongoing cost I would play MTG

In that case, I guess you will not be buying ever, since the Subscription mode is how they are doing business.  You don't like it, fine, but frankly, a lot of anger has been generated precisely because Goko/MF was NOT on a subscription basis.  If they had been, the people who had paid Goko/MF to pay wouldn't be mad, unless the price jumped a lot, and the people (like you presumably) who find subscriptions unacceptable would already have quit online Dominion. 

Nobody owes you an online implementation.  It exists because there are people willing to buy.  If you are not one of them, that's ok.  You don't owe ShuffleIt anything either.  In the end you have to decide if what is offered is worth your money.  Just don't expect them to change back to a business model that has already sunk not one but two companies just to satisfy you.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: TwoWhiteBears on 04 January 2017, 04:36:54 AM
You payed money to Making Fun, whose license to online Dominion expired at the end of the last year. ShuffleIt can't do anything about that.
You guys agreed to make a new client knowing this would be an issue. You don't want to do anything about that.

I don't understand why you think that. I would love to do something about that. Unfortunately, it involves building a time machine, going back 5 years in time, and warning Donald X. about this company making promises about his game beyond the scope of their licence.

Do you realize we got none of that money you paid? What would you have us do? Don't get me wrong, I do understand your pain. It totally sucks that you were promised something you're not getting. But I can't create it for you out of thin air. I don't think any of the people involved in the creation of this situation were evil or anything. The worst you can accuse them of is being a bit naive. And not just them, also the people paying that $90 and actually believing they could play Dominion Online forever (I was one of them).
It's nice that we get a free year of Dominion under your client.

Would have been nicer if the client was actually finished before the year started.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Bludrok on 04 January 2017, 04:56:27 PM
You payed money to Making Fun, whose license to online Dominion expired at the end of the last year. ShuffleIt can't do anything about that.
You guys agreed to make a new client knowing this would be an issue. You don't want to do anything about that.

I don't understand why you think that. I would love to do something about that. Unfortunately, it involves building a time machine, going back 5 years in time, and warning Donald X. about this company making promises about his game beyond the scope of their licence.

Do you realize we got none of that money you paid? What would you have us do? Don't get me wrong, I do understand your pain. It totally sucks that you were promised something you're not getting. But I can't create it for you out of thin air. I don't think any of the people involved in the creation of this situation were evil or anything. The worst you can accuse them of is being a bit naive. And not just them, also the people paying that $90 and actually believing they could play Dominion Online forever (I was one of them).

As a user who paid for a couple of online expansions, I disagree with your stance. You can easily grandfather the people who have already made purchases and allow them to have what they have already paid for. Now I understand you would not gain any money by this, but you would gain the trust of your users who, as long as you continue to publish good online content, are likely to make more purchases. Those users would also continue to pull in other, subscription based users to make the company profitable. This is just good customer service in my opinion.

In all honesty, I haven't played dominion online in a long time, and was only reminded about it when I received the email about the change. I came online to check it out, and based on what I see so far, will most likely not be back. It seems to me that many users will feel the same.

I do agree with others that if it was a subscription platform initially, this problem would not have occurred, however that is not how it was sold. Better be careful how you tread here, I could easily see this turning into a class action lawsuit.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Jacob Marley on 04 January 2017, 06:59:04 PM
I bought a car at Michaels Toyota in Fresno, CA years ago.  It broke down.  Now I should be able to go to Stevens Creek Toyota in San Jose and have them give me a new car since I paid for one and it no longer works.

This illustrates the flaw in your argument.  You didn't pay for the right to use Dominion for the rest of your life no matter who is providing it, you paid for the use of Goko/MK's Dominion product. That is now gone (broken down).  You didn't "already" pay for ShuffleIt's product, but they, in the interest of customer service, are giving you free use of their product for a limited time. 

We've all heard this argument before, and it stems from an emotional reaction where you feel that you should own the new product, not the legal reality.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on 04 January 2017, 09:29:34 PM
I bought a car at Michaels Toyota in Fresno, CA years ago.  It broke down.  Now I should be able to go to Stevens Creek Toyota in San Jose and have them give me a new car since I paid for one and it no longer works.

This illustrates the flaw in your argument.  You didn't pay for the right to use Dominion for the rest of your life no matter who is providing it, you paid for the use of Goko/MK's Dominion product. That is now gone (broken down).  You didn't "already" pay for ShuffleIt's product, but they, in the interest of customer service, are giving you free use of their product for a limited time. 

We've all heard this argument before, and it stems from an emotional reaction where you feel that you should own the new product, not the legal reality.
This.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: webnesto on 04 January 2017, 11:17:34 PM
I agree that expecting Shuffle iT to take the financial burden of Making Fun's mistakes, does not make sense from either a legal or ethical standpoint.

I do however take issue with the $ I'm being "credited" being applied to what appears to be little more than a beta release.  Given that there are cards not yet implemented (Inheritance, Stash), no continued ability to play with mobile users (my primary play partner used a phone), and the copious amounts of user experience and functional bugs in place - I would actually say it is absolutely a beta release.

I've seen Hearthstone mentioned in some threads as a comparison to this release: which seems silly to me - Hearthstone was being produced by a company that had all of the resources necessary to create such a game AND the profit margins to do so at a loss until the product was perfect.  Plus that had an astronomically larger user base to leverage (from WoW). 

That being said, this release seems much rougher than one would expect for a pay-to-play game.  I know there's an argument to be made that this *is* free to play, but if my subscription has a monetary value (it does) and the product is not one that I would be paying for yet (I wouldn't), then it seems I'm being forced to pay for an unfinished product.

Which seems kinda lame to me.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: tufftaeh on 05 January 2017, 12:22:37 AM
I know there's an argument to be made that this *is* free to play, but if my subscription has a monetary value (it does) and the product is not one that I would be paying for yet (I wouldn't), then it seems I'm being forced to pay for an unfinished product.

Which seems kinda lame to me.
How are you being forced to pay if you get this year for free without paying one Dollar? Seems kinda strange to me. If you don't like the gift you got, don't use it. Have some other fun and come back in a month or so to see if it then suits your requirements.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: webnesto on 05 January 2017, 12:44:09 AM
I know there's an argument to be made that this *is* free to play, but if my subscription has a monetary value (it does) and the product is not one that I would be paying for yet (I wouldn't), then it seems I'm being forced to pay for an unfinished product.

Which seems kinda lame to me.
How are you being forced to pay if you get this year for free without paying one Dollar? Seems kinda strange to me. If you don't like the gift you got, don't use it. Have some other fun and come back in a month or so to see if it then suits your requirements.

Well the "gift of a year's subscription" seems like not much of a gift, if I'm being used as a beta tester.  It's more the appearance of such.  I do get that Shuffle iT doesn't have any real legal responsibility to have gifted us the subscriptions, but it did so for a valid economic reason: the volume of users they would have lost without some sort of concession would've seriously hurt the product.  No one will want to play if there is never anyone to match with.  So, it's not just out of the kindness of their hearts.

There are/were a myriad of ways that they could have better handled this.  In the welcome letter: note that the product is still in beta, give some sort of timeline of finished product release, for example.

Honestly I think this reflects more poorly on the license holder(s) than it does Shuffle iT.  They seem far too willing to (repeatedly) have their name attached to products released before being production ready.

I dunno... I was really looking forward to the change over... I thought some of the MF shortcomings would be improved upon... I'm finding myself soured on the product.  (For reference, I own all print expansions and had paid full price for all previous expansions in the MF version).

"If you don't like the gift you got, don't use it." seems rude.  I don't think I made hyperbolic or unfair criticisms of the product.

Are you an employee of Shuffle iT?  You seem to say things on the forum that makes me think you are.  If so, you're not representing your company very well.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: tracer on 05 January 2017, 01:37:08 AM
Any employee of Shuffle iT would be denoted as such under their username.

You are not being used as a beta tester and it is not still in beta.
Software is constantly updated and fixed based on reports and suggestions from users. I can assure you that this is a much more finished product than it was during the actual beta testing period, and it likely never will be truly finished - updates will be made and bugs will be fixed; Making Fun was the same way until they stopped due to having lost the license.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Stef on 05 January 2017, 02:57:52 AM
You are not being used as a beta tester and it is not still in beta.

It is indeed no longer in beta, but I don't blame people for thinking it is. We have a long way to go - especially on some issues that have a large impact on the games look and feel (graphics, sounds).

Comparing this product to something like hearthstone is... ambitious. Apparently (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Design_and_development_of_Hearthstone#Initial_development) they built it with an exceptionally small team of 15 people in only 6 years... well we were with 2-3 people for one year. If people still expect the same result I can understand their disappointment. The harsh truth is that a lot of money was lost with all the failed Dominion Online trials we've had over the past several years.

Nonetheless I have faith in the future... now that we can actually sell subscriptions there will also be room to pay more people to get some great graphics, and when we add them over the next couple of months I think people will be positively surprised. The emailing was problematic at the start but the gameservers themselves easily handled the load and I think we have something here we can build upon. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: webnesto on 05 January 2017, 04:10:07 AM
You are not being used as a beta tester and it is not still in beta.

It is indeed no longer in beta, but I don't blame people for thinking it is. We have a long way to go - especially on some issues that have a large impact on the games look and feel (graphics, sounds).

I work in tech, I know that "beta" is a matter of opinion and doesn't necessarily refer to any technical definition.  However, a product that has *significantly* less functionality than the standard set by a previous release and is still full of many untested/unidentified bugs should not be considered a release candidate.  It's pretty much an open beta.  Semantics I know, but significant when dealing with customer satisfaction.

As a user, if this is an open beta, I think the product is in great shape.  If this is considered a release worthy (i.e. *sellable*) product, then it is woefully lacking in features, design, and customer liaison.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: josh bornstein on 05 January 2017, 12:24:41 PM
I bought a car at Michaels Toyota in Fresno, CA years ago.  It broke down.  Now I should be able to go to Stevens Creek Toyota in San Jose and have them give me a new car since I paid for one and it no longer works.

This illustrates the flaw in your argument.  You didn't pay for the right to use Dominion for the rest of your life no matter who is providing it, you paid for the use of Goko/MK's Dominion product. That is now gone (broken down).  You didn't "already" pay for ShuffleIt's product, but they, in the interest of customer service, are giving you free use of their product for a limited time. 

We've all heard this argument before, and it stems from an emotional reaction where you feel that you should own the new product, not the legal reality.
This.

Not a great analogy.  Here is a different one:
You got to your first Fresno Toyota dealership to buy your car.  Instead of paying $25,000 for Model X, you instead pay 37,500 for the same car, for a lifetime of Toyota car use.  All good, for many years.  But then Toyota is bought out by, say Honda (or Rolls Royce, or whatever).  Now, you find out that your original "lifetime" warranty is worthless.  Yes, your fault for not reading the fine print of that contract you signed, where it said it was valid only re Toyota.

The fact that Honda is willing to give you a year's free lease on a replacement car is something, of course.  And maybe something that, strictly speaking, it was not legally required to do.  But you probably are not going to be super-happy with Honda, and since it's the only car dealership still around (Remember that Toyota was bought out), it's Honda that will get the brunt of your wrath.

Of course, it could have been part of the Toyota-Honda buyout agreement that all 'lifetime' warranties would be honored by Honda.  Or Honda could say, "Hey, it wasn't part of the agreement, but we'll grandfather all of you legacy buyers and your old agreements will be honored."  But unless Honda gets a crapload of bad publicity, there really isn't any business reason to turn down all that future renewal money.

I pissed away close to $100 buying (or overbuying, in retrospect) the game and all the expansions under the old ownership.  I am hopeful that, at the end of this year, I'll be given the option of buying future use for a vastly reduced amount.  I'd feel ripped off if I had to pay double, and probably would not elect to renew.  If enough people feel the same way, then I suspect that the new Dom. owners will listen, and will try to work with us.  If it turns out that only a few people are really that exercised about it, then I think that the message to us will be, "Hard cheese.  If you want to pay full price again, great.  If not, then we'll be sorry to lose your business with us.  Don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out."  :-)

Market forces at work.  Alas.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Jacob Marley on 05 January 2017, 08:35:19 PM
Many auto dealerships are independently owned and operated, and simply have an agreement to sell the cars of a given manufacturer.  In my analogy, I assume that Michaels and Stevens Creek are independant dealers and are stand-ins for MF and ShuffleIt, and Toyota represents Rio Grande Games, so I think the analogy holds.  In any case, my point is that the benefit people lost when RGG took the license away from MF is not something that ShuffleIt is responsible for, but a lot of people here are blaming ShuffleIt.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Polk5440 on 05 January 2017, 08:45:59 PM
Making Fun honored purchases made under Goko. It's not unprecedented in Dominion land.

I would totally pay again for a brand new version of online Dominion (and I did just pay for Adventures and Empires to support the new version), but honestly, it's easy to see where the complaints are coming from, given the current state of the new product. The complaints are not unreasonable.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Polk5440 on 05 January 2017, 08:57:14 PM
You are not being used as a beta tester and it is not still in beta.

It is indeed no longer in beta, but I don't blame people for thinking it is. We have a long way to go - especially on some issues that have a large impact on the games look and feel (graphics, sounds).

Comparing this product to something like hearthstone is... ambitious. Apparently (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Design_and_development_of_Hearthstone#Initial_development) they built it with an exceptionally small team of 15 people in only 6 years... well we were with 2-3 people for one year. If people still expect the same result I can understand their disappointment. The harsh truth is that a lot of money was lost with all the failed Dominion Online trials we've had over the past several years.

Nonetheless I have faith in the future... now that we can actually sell subscriptions there will also be room to pay more people to get some great graphics, and when we add them over the next couple of months I think people will be positively surprised. The emailing was problematic at the start but the gameservers themselves easily handled the load and I think we have something here we can build upon. Time will tell.

This is great! Thanks for posting this, Stef. It gives me a lot of confidence that the future of Dominion is in good hands, even if the vision isn't 100 percent actualized at the moment.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Angelbane on 06 January 2017, 02:55:41 AM
I bought a car at Michaels Toyota in Fresno, CA years ago.  It broke down.  Now I should be able to go to Stevens Creek Toyota in San Jose and have them give me a new car since I paid for one and it no longer works.

This illustrates the flaw in your argument.  You didn't pay for the right to use Dominion for the rest of your life no matter who is providing it, you paid for the use of Goko/MK's Dominion product. That is now gone (broken down).  You didn't "already" pay for ShuffleIt's product, but they, in the interest of customer service, are giving you free use of their product for a limited time. 

We've all heard this argument before, and it stems from an emotional reaction where you feel that you should own the new product, not the legal reality.
This.

Not a great analogy.  Here is a different one:
You got to your first Fresno Toyota dealership to buy your car.  Instead of paying $25,000 for Model X, you instead pay 37,500 for the same car, for a lifetime of Toyota car use.  All good, for many years.  But then Toyota is bought out by, say Honda (or Rolls Royce, or whatever).  Now, you find out that your original "lifetime" warranty is worthless.  Yes, your fault for not reading the fine print of that contract you signed, where it said it was valid only re Toyota.

The fact that Honda is willing to give you a year's free lease on a replacement car is something, of course.  And maybe something that, strictly speaking, it was not legally required to do.  But you probably are not going to be super-happy with Honda, and since it's the only car dealership still around (Remember that Toyota was bought out), it's Honda that will get the brunt of your wrath.

Of course, it could have been part of the Toyota-Honda buyout agreement that all 'lifetime' warranties would be honored by Honda.  Or Honda could say, "Hey, it wasn't part of the agreement, but we'll grandfather all of you legacy buyers and your old agreements will be honored."  But unless Honda gets a crapload of bad publicity, there really isn't any business reason to turn down all that future renewal money.

I pissed away close to $100 buying (or overbuying, in retrospect) the game and all the expansions under the old ownership.  I am hopeful that, at the end of this year, I'll be given the option of buying future use for a vastly reduced amount.  I'd feel ripped off if I had to pay double, and probably would not elect to renew.  If enough people feel the same way, then I suspect that the new Dom. owners will listen, and will try to work with us.  If it turns out that only a few people are really that exercised about it, then I think that the message to us will be, "Hard cheese.  If you want to pay full price again, great.  If not, then we'll be sorry to lose your business with us.  Don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out."  :-)

Market forces at work.  Alas.

Here is MY analogy.

I Buy a Toyota with all the bells and whistles to go off-road alone I don't want/need anyone with me cause anyone with me it came with a winch (campaign mode) if I get stuck. So I off driving the trails and all of a sudden my truck stops running. I have gas I have spark there is nothing wrong with it. Unbeknownst to me Toyota just sold the rights to the truck line to GM and a kill command was sent to my perfectly GREAT vehicle (at least to me I like it even if others don't). I then find out that in order to continue driving the trails I have to use a DIFFERENT truck does not have all the features that I am used to and really the only ones that matter to me (campaign mode) and to add insult to injury I have to pay ~50% of what I paid originally EVERY YEAR for the privilege.

Oh and as far as the first year free not on my account.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Jacob Marley on 06 January 2017, 05:39:41 AM
You are not being used as a beta tester and it is not still in beta.

It is indeed no longer in beta, but I don't blame people for thinking it is. We have a long way to go - especially on some issues that have a large impact on the games look and feel (graphics, sounds).

Comparing this product to something like hearthstone is... ambitious. Apparently (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Design_and_development_of_Hearthstone#Initial_development) they built it with an exceptionally small team of 15 people in only 6 years... well we were with 2-3 people for one year. If people still expect the same result I can understand their disappointment. The harsh truth is that a lot of money was lost with all the failed Dominion Online trials we've had over the past several years.

Nonetheless I have faith in the future... now that we can actually sell subscriptions there will also be room to pay more people to get some great graphics, and when we add them over the next couple of months I think people will be positively surprised. The emailing was problematic at the start but the gameservers themselves easily handled the load and I think we have something here we can build upon. Time will tell.

This is great! Thanks for posting this, Stef. It gives me a lot of confidence that the future of Dominion is in good hands, even if the vision isn't 100 percent actualized at the moment.

But Goko sold the license to MF when it folded.  ShuffleIt was awarded the license by RGG when the MF license expired so the Goko to MF transition is not a model for MF to ShuffleIt.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Stef on 06 January 2017, 01:06:55 PM
...really the only ones that matter to me (campaign mode) and to add insult to injury I have to pay ~50% of what I paid originally EVERY YEAR for the privilege.

Oh and as far as the first year free not on my account.

Many, many people bought a subscription at MF until the end of 2016, while thinking they were buying their idea of permanent card ownership. While I cannot be sure, I think the same applies to you. At least in their export your name was only credited with the "Base" expansion. Did you pay ~$5/month to them, or did you actually pay the full $100? If it's the latter, please send me a PM (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?action=profile;u=3) and we'll get it sorted out.

I am sorry we didn't manage to launch with Campaigns included. They are coming though.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Panoptikus on 06 January 2017, 04:33:06 PM
While I share much of the criticism regarding the interface of the current implementation, I think the subscription based model is very smart and reasonable. I just paid for 2 month to get the new expansions. It did cost less than a meal. I am not forced to renew my subscription. Let's call this the "Netflix" model of the digital economy. Why is this model smart? Because you constantly pay for a product that is constantly generating costs. You pay for a service not a physical product. MFs model was unfair (because it provoked expectations it could not fulfill) and doomed to fail.
Dont get me wrong: there is indeed much room for improvement- but the business model is solid and fair. I guess if the implementation survives 2017 most of us would be more than happy to pay a small amount of money for a service that is much better than the current incarnation.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: yed on 06 January 2017, 04:49:43 PM
...really the only ones that matter to me (campaign mode) and to add insult to injury I have to pay ~50% of what I paid originally EVERY YEAR for the privilege.

Oh and as far as the first year free not on my account.

Many, many people bought a subscription at MF until the end of 2016, while thinking they were buying their idea of permanent card ownership. While I cannot be sure, I think the same applies to you. At least in their export your name was only credited with the "Base" expansion. Did you pay ~$5/month to them, or did you actually pay the full $100? If it's the latter, please send me a PM (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?action=profile;u=3) and we'll get it sorted out.

I am sorry we didn't manage to launch with Campaigns included. They are coming though.
Angelbane probably had subscription (unless he changed username or bought cards and the did not used them for 6 months).
His first game was: 2016/12/12 00:54
All Angelbane games:
http://gokosalvager.com/logsearch?p1name=Angelbane&p1score=any&p2name=&startdate=08%2F05%2F2012&enddate=01%2F06%2F2017&supply=&nonsupply=&rating=any&pcount=any&colony=any&bot=any&shelters=any&guest=any&minturns=&maxturns=&quit=any&resign=any&limit=500&submitted=true&offset=0
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: allanfieldhouse on 06 January 2017, 09:03:44 PM

Here is MY analogy.

I Buy a Toyota with all the bells and whistles to go off-road alone I don't want/need anyone with me cause anyone with me it came with a winch (campaign mode) if I get stuck. So I off driving the trails and all of a sudden my truck stops running. I have gas I have spark there is nothing wrong with it. Unbeknownst to me Toyota just sold the rights to the truck line to GM and a kill command was sent to my perfectly GREAT vehicle (at least to me I like it even if others don't). I then find out that in order to continue driving the trails I have to use a DIFFERENT truck does not have all the features that I am used to and really the only ones that matter to me (campaign mode) and to add insult to injury I have to pay ~50% of what I paid originally EVERY YEAR for the privilege.

Oh and as far as the first year free not on my account.

Good news!

They're developing campaign mode, so you'll be set there later in the year. They've also promised a Dominion Offline version where you can own all the expansions forever (even if they later lose the license). Offline isn't done yet, but if you purchased all expansions on the old site, you can get it for free when it's done (instead of the free year subscription).

So it sounds like they've promised you exactly what you want, but it's just not done yet.


Edit: Okay, it sounds like you probably only had the subscription. In that case, they sold it to you as something that would only work until the end of the year, and they were pretty explicit about that being the case. You can still buy the new truck you want though!
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: tufftaeh on 07 January 2017, 04:53:02 PM
If you don't like the gift you got, don't use it. Have some other fun and come back in a month or so to see if it then suits your requirements.
"If you don't like the gift you got, don't use it." seems rude.  I don't think I made hyperbolic or unfair criticisms of the product.

Sorry if you felt that way. I didn't intend it to be rude but just as suggestion, especially clarified by the next sentence which you might have overlooked. I didn't mean to imply any unfair criticism of the product but just wanted to point out that you were basically complaining to be forced to pay zero for an unfinished product.

Are you an employee of Shuffle iT?  You seem to say things on the forum that makes me think you are.  If so, you're not representing your company very well.

I'm not an employee of Shuffle iT at all. I'm just a normal guy who happens to like this game and to like the new implementation the best of all I've seen so far. I have bought all IRL card sets, plus several copies of the base cards already, and of course all available sets on Goko/MF. Somehow, this doesn't make me angry at DXV or Rio Grande and even less at Shuffle iT who have done nothing wrong. At the predefined release date they just were not completely done with development, unfortunately, but for me (I don't play on phone or tablet) the experience was much better than with any previous implementation at that early stage.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: kivron on 07 January 2017, 06:19:21 PM
I'm one of the user at MF.
As clearly described in the first post here

https://forum.makingfun.com/showthread.php?8711-2016-plan-future

"If you purchase or have already purchased a Dominion expansion set in v1 or v2 you will also have it in the new 2017 Dominion experience. Just as we honored all v1 purchases in our new v2, Donald and Jay have committed to honoring your previous purchases in their new version."

This is not like an year subcription.
I'm very upset.
IMHO you have to be aware: I don't think many users will pay again for some that they've had already paid, and surely this will be a lesson learned for the future...
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: bananny on 07 January 2017, 06:49:19 PM
I purchased most of the expansions with Making Fun.  I also own several expansions of the physical cards.  If I moved to a new house, does that mean I have to buy my physical cards again?  No!  The game moved to a new house.  My cards moved with the game.  I shouldn't have to buy them again.

My theory is that the online popularity of Dominion grew to a point where Rio Grande saw a bigger money making opportunity.  I bet they killed their relationship with Making Fun just to move to a new provider to give them an excuse to start charging an annual subscription so they could keep making money off of the players.

The new platform is of lower quality than the one created by Making Fun.  That alone is offensive and asking me to hand over more money for a lesser quality product is even more offensive.

I don't think Rio Grande thought ahead when they allowed players to buy expansions.  Once purchased, they no longer profited off of us.  They found a loophole to keep making money and while I get it, it's effing BS.  If a subscription was offered from the beginning, we wouldn't be having this argument.

Those of us that already purchased cards should be given our access with no additional charge.  Apply the new policy to new members or the cheap members who refused to buy cards in the past that are always in chat asking to be invited to expansion games.  That's my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: Donald X. on 08 January 2017, 02:12:41 AM
My theory is that the online popularity of Dominion grew to a point where Rio Grande saw a bigger money making opportunity.  I bet they killed their relationship with Making Fun just to move to a new provider to give them an excuse to start charging an annual subscription so they could keep making money off of the players.
That isn't what happened, and I would know.

I was the one who wanted to switch from MF to someone else, whoever that turned out to be. I felt let down by them repeatedly. I decided to give them more of a chance and they kept letting me down. Finally I discussed it with Jay (RGG) and we agreed to switch when their contract ran out. This meant finding someone to take over and ideally getting them started in advance so they'd be ready Jan 1 2017.

The Goko and MF versions never made us much money. We just figured that it wasn't that popular; if a lot of people were playing well I guess those people were playing for free, since that was possible. That wasn't a motivating factor, but did contribute to it feeling like, whatever, we're not losing anything here.

When it came time to negotiate with Shuffle iT, our plan was simply to pay for every existing customer's service on the new system. This would mean we'd be out more money than we'd ever made from online Dominion, but it just wasn't that much money. However we found out that RGG had blown it on the contract back when; online Dominion had been making money, we just weren't seeing much of it. There was no possible way to pay for everyone. We negotiated to receive less money from Shuffle iT over the first year with them, in exchange for them giving old users the option of the offline version (to keep) or a year of subscription. It seems very likely that this will end up costing us more than we ever made from online Dominion (though it will be a year before I know). I don't mind and I'm not complaining; I'm just saying this to make it clear: that because other people seemed to make promises that couldn't be kept about my board game ("seemed to" because probably technically people just bought funny money, and I value accuracy so I am being accurate), I gave up some income on the off-chance that some people would be less mad. And so did RGG. From our perspective we were, not only not greedy, but generous.

We did not suggest a subscription-based system. Shuffle iT wanted that, and we decided to let them try it. Worst case, people don't buy it. That's very bad for Shuffle iT but it's the risk they wanted to take. For us, that worst case is just business as usual; I have a lot of experience with not making money from online Dominion, both from the years when people played free online versions, and from the Goko / MF years. It's not so bad.

It's a bummer that people felt they were buying Dominion forever, and weren't. I have tried to give those people something even though my technical involvement is just a contract with RGG that lets RGG sub-license for digital versions in exchange for a % of the take.

There was a point, not at the beginning but eventually, when MF wanted to try subscriptions. Jay and I didn't like the idea - we felt that people wouldn't want to buy a subscription. That proposal made it easier for us to agree to subscriptions when Shuffle iT also wanted them; and then MF asked again and we said sure and they had subscriptions for the last however many months. In retrospect of course it's sad we didn't let MF have subscriptions earlier, because fewer people would be unhappy today. I prefer the way old computer games worked, where you bought a disc and it was yours, to keep playing until your OS didn't support it anymore. A subscription however at least has the benefit (over the Goko system) of, when the company's contract is up, no-one feels owed anything.
Title: Re: Pricing and reimbursement
Post by: bananny on 08 January 2017, 04:12:05 AM
I appreciate the response, thank you.  However, I still feel like it's unfair to have to pay again for something I've already purchased.  I purchased Catan expansions from Google Play years ago, I continue to play Catan as usual and I've never once had to switch to a new system or buy my expansions again.  Another example is MTG on Steam.  I've purchased new versions over the years they have been released, so they're technically new expansions with new cards and I haven't had to re-buy them.  They're still sitting there on my Steam