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Dominion => General Discussion => Topic started by: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 01:21:35 PM

Title: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 01:21:35 PM
When are we going to have all of the cards implemented? This includes fixing all of the cards that require you to name a card since they're unplayable at this point, and we need a way to view the Journey Token at any time.

The software was released almost three weeks ago and at a bare minimum it should have been completely implemented by that point: this isn't even the top priority.

New releases are getting less frequent and this doesn't appear to be on anyone's radar. I kind of doubt this is ever going to be finished at this point.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Lotoreo on 19 January 2017, 02:51:12 PM
I would assume that you got that the wrong way around.
I guess that fewer small releases are just a hint that a bigger release is upcomeing.


(But then again, with all the negative energy you are spreading, I would understand them not finishing the game. But that is out of topic.)
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 03:00:06 PM
I will admit that my "negative energy" is comparatively negative to a lot of what is being spread around here. I'll just say that I think a lot of people are being overly optimistic. I'm only going off of what I have, which is the released software, which doesn't fully implement the game, and the fact that all of these updates have been made to features that really should be less important.

All someone needs to say is "yes we have a bigger release coming up" -- instead all I've heard is "I don't like your tone/energy Adam". It's text, I have typed words that express thoughts and nothing more, and asked a legitimate question. Instead of giving me an actual response to my question I have people complaining about what's in between the words I've typed.

So is there a bigger release coming up?
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Ingix on 19 January 2017, 03:51:12 PM
I'm with Adam that communication of what's to come is suboptimal. For example, the sticky post "Missing Features" from Stef in "Feature Requests" is from December 10th, that is a time when the game was still in beta. The major complaints now might warrant a different prioritization than what was given at that time. Players probably also don't care that much about what's coming this year. They might care more about what's coming next week and/or next month.

Unfortunately there are so many different problems at the moment (mobile client, log problems, UI problems for different cards, no (visible) ratings, AI doing 'stupid' things with certain cards, standalone version) that I assume any progress will only affect one are two areas, and players who are not concerned with those areas will see no progress (a player playing against AI will not care that much about a rating, and a player playing against humans will not care about AI improvements, for example).


So I still hope for improvements, but I'm less optimistic about the game getting better soon than I was a week or two before.


Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: yed on 19 January 2017, 04:42:14 PM
Stef on Discord Today at 12:45 AM #general-chatter (https://discord.gg/BJZ62hZ):
Quote
currently we're working on building a rating system, and providing a way for people to look at old logs
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: JunkDealer on 19 January 2017, 05:02:28 PM
Quote from: yed on 19 January 2017, 04:42:14 PM
Stef on Discord Today at 12:45 AM #general-chatter (https://discord.gg/BJZ62hZ):
Quote
currently we're working on building a rating system, and providing a way for people to look at old logs

I find it interesting that basically the same discussion that I was involved with on discord broke out here.  I don't know if the preceding posts were because of the discussion I had on discord or if it's just a weird coincidence that they took place at roughly the same time.  I wasn't going to post it here, but since yed only provided part of the conversation I now feel the full context could be useful to some of the people posting in the forum who might not see the discord discussion.  If for no other reason then to prevent duplication of messages (another area I feel this forum could use help with... strong moderators that merge/link/lock duplicate conversations, but I digress...)

Anyhow, here is the full text of the conversation.  I've put it in code blocks since it is somewhat lengthy.  I note that at one point Stef indicated that they won't commit to schedules "at least not yet" so I am hopeful that they may at some point understand and accept that some customers want to be kept well informed and that doing so while more work also prevents other work. (like responding to these types of comments over and over)



LaLight - Yesterday at 4:25 PM
well.. we will definitely improve the bot. Just not right now. He sometimes is not as bad as it seems ;)

JunkDealer - Yesterday at 4:26 PM
Oh for sure.  I've been beaten several times.  Usually because I'm focussed on my own stuff and don't realize they've jumped into points mode until too late.  I blame part of that on the lack of visual and audio clues that I grew used to with the MF version.  Retraining myself to actually look at the logs, which to me is time consuming and unideal, but it is what it is.
Improvements are coming and I appreciate that.  I just wish they were a bit faster coming.  Again I think that stems from thinking much of what I was expecting was going to be ready at launch.  I was quite surprised at the stuff not delivered at that point.
Don't get me wrong.  There's a lot of potential here, just wasn't where my expectations were sitting so I'm having to reframe things.  I'd encourage you all to keep providing information.  ie) Control the message.  The reality is in the absence of information people create misinformation.  Ideally I'd love to see actually ETA dates on the features list so that people at least have a vague idea of when things are coming.  If dates need to be adjusted then explain that and adjust them, but for me at least, having no dates is worse.

Stef - Yesterday at 4:36 PM
sorry if you feel that way, but we won't commit to schedules
at least not right now

JunkDealer - Yesterday at 4:41 PM
I think that's a mistake.  Again I'm not asking for commitments, but forecasts.  It's disappointing to hear that you know there are issues and features, but not provide even rough guidance (aside from sometime in 2017) for stuff that again perhaps mistakenly people thought would be there at launch.  That's what I mean about controlling the message.  I think a lot of frustrations expressed can be countered with well placed dialogue.  Absence of that always causes the crazies (like me) to assume the worst.  Ultimately though it's your company and that's just my opinion, but it's one that I've expressed to many companies.  Take 7 Wonders for example that's been in beta almost 2 years with no communication.  Or Nancy Drew who has had their latest game in development with almost no communication for 2 years.  In both of those cases you have loyal people literally switching to trash talking.  The more information you provide the more you placate people like me.  Knowing that you are currently working on x and forecast it to be ready by y.  Then knowing you hit roadblock z and have to shift the forecast to a tells me that you care about me as a customer.  Silence does the opposite.  Anyhow, thanks for listening and responding.  I do appreciate the hard work you are doing.
func_door - Yesterday at 4:45 PM
there's a balance to be made in placating people with communication and communicating things that may not end up being accurate

Stef - Yesterday at 4:45 PM
but... we're not silent at all
currently we're working on building a rating system, and providing a way for people to look at old logs
we've also been quite descriptive of the progress made the first 20 days of this year
it's just... I enjoy making new stuff a lot more then talking about why/what/when is coming
and especially why what isn't there yet
you're just turning 20 days into 2 years now... that seems a bit premature

Philip - Yesterday at 4:47 PM
" The more information you provide the more you placate people like me. Knowing that you are currently working on x and forecast it to be ready by y. Then knowing you hit roadblock z and have to shift the forecast to a tells me that you care about me as a customer."

My take: That is a lot of work. And the time we spend doing that is time we can't spend coding. In the end it's far better to promise little and deliver a lot than the other way around.
Stef - Yesterday at 4:47 PM
very possibly your expectations of what would be finished at launch would have been very realistic if most of the money that users spend on Dominion in the past years would have ended up with us. But alack, it did not.

JunkDealer - Yesterday at 4:50 PM
Except that in my mind what was promised at launch wasn't delivered and that does translate into more than just 20 days.  Since what I was expecting at launch wasn't there I then forecast that out to your list of priorities and have to wonder if you'll even get those done in 2017.  This is my point.  Without information people like me fill there head based on prior experience.  It's not uncommon for software companies to miss deadlines (by a lot).... but whenever those misses are communicated they are impacted by negative press and thoughts a lot less.  You seem to have a pretty loyal following I wouldn't be surprised if some of them wouldn't be willing to help you communicate more.
Again I realize that perhaps my expectations of the launch were completely unrealistic, but there was nothing obvious that helped me frame them better.  Managing people's expectations helps manage frustrations and complaints.  That's what communication is all about.  Yes, it's a pain and takes away from what you really want to do, but that's what differentiates good companies from great companies.  They control their message.  Anyhow.... I'm probably not changing any minds here so again appreciate you listening and responding.  Keep up the hard work!

Stef - Yesterday at 4:55 PM
I think the best thing we can do is just show progress
if we manage that, people will assume progress will continue
and rightfully so
that would beat any amount of promisses & ETAs

JunkDealer - Yesterday at 4:57 PM
AGain I disagree.  The progress you've made in the last 20 days isn't insignificant, but I haven't seen anything of substance (no offense meant.... bugs are exceptionally time consuming).  Forecasts help frame expectations.  Right now you have no frame for people to judge against except the initial launch.... but here I am circling back to my original expectations blah blah blah..... :smiley:

Stef - Yesterday at 4:59 PM
Let's just both hope you'll be positively surprised 3 months from now

JunkDealer - Yesterday at 5:01 PM
I'm hoping so too. :smiley:
Best of luck!
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: tufftaeh on 19 January 2017, 06:18:28 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 03:00:06 PM
I will admit that my "negative energy" is comparatively negative to a lot of what is being spread around here. I'll just say that I think a lot of people are being overly optimistic. I'm only going off of what I have, which is the released software, which doesn't fully implement the game, and the fact that all of these updates have been made to features that really should be less important.
I totally understand that you wish that the issues which are most important for you personally should be fixed first. I don't care that much either about platforms that I don't play on, and as I got my transfer mail without any problem and as could pay in the Store, fixing all this was not important for me. It might be slightly different from the point of view of the company offering this online implementation. They need to try to make as many users as happy as possible and set their priorities accordingly, which might result in a different sequence from the one you and I might prefer. By the way, I, personally, feel that making the lobby usable (if still not great) was more important than Inheritance and Stash. But now I think that fixing the naming issue should be indeed one of the top priorities.

Quote from: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 03:00:06 PM
All someone needs to say is "yes we have a bigger release coming up" -- instead all I've heard is "I don't like your tone/energy Adam". It's text, I have typed words that express thoughts and nothing more, and asked a legitimate question. Instead of giving me an actual response to my question I have people complaining about what's in between the words I've typed.
I believe the people expressing discomfort with the way you express your demands are not the same people who actually work on the software. Which (I think) is actually a good thing because the latter spend their time for something which helps more users than comforting you by answering all your posts.

Quote from: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 03:00:06 PM
So is there a bigger release coming up?
I don't know what you would deem a bigger release. I suggest that you post a list of the things you would like to have fixed/changed, ordered by priority. That might really help (especially if multiple users do it) for priorization.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 07:19:37 PM
It seems the developers are willing to communicate with their customers on the discord channel. That requires an account to even view, doesn't it? These forums are publicly viewable. If you're going to take the time to communicate with your customers, it seems smart to make that available to view publicly.

I'm not going to join that Discord channel, I shouldn't have to in order to hear from the people making this product.

JunkDealer makes a lot of good points in that chat and they are dismissed for some pretty bad reasons.

1. I sympathize with the idea that time spent talking about your work is time that could be spent actually doing that work. I am the technical lead on my project at work and I spend a lot of time doing exactly that and I hate it. Unfortunately, I can't just blow that off because I have a manager who I need to report to. After several months it's gotten down to a weekly status E-mail I have to send (10 minutes), a bi-weekly status meeting in-person (30 minutes), plus a higher-level weekly meeting that is super-boring but I really do need to be there (60 minutes). I spend roughly 85 minutes each week talking about my work, and I have to factor that into my estimates on how long each task is going to take to complete. It's really annoying.

The fact that your entire company is just two people and you don't have a manager bothering you for status 85 minutes every week makes it much more important that you take the initiative to do this yourself. You can have someone type up your status in a pretty way and answer customer questions to help with it, but this is part of the process and if you ignore it, people are going to not use your product when they otherwise would have. This directly translates to money in your pocket, and you're basically turning it down because you don't want to be bothered to talk to your customers.

2. I get the "under-promise, over-deliver" thing too. I do that all the time, it's a necessary part of the process. That's not what you're doing. Right now you are not promising anything at all. It's not "don't promise" it's "under-promise". A response to my first message could have been "we're working on these things, a release is coming up" and that would have been enough, and it promises hardly anything. (Instead I got a PM saying how my question wasn't constructive, I'm guessing because I didn't sugar-coat it enough, or something?)

"Let's just both hope you'll be positively surprised 3 months from now" is not going to make anyone feel better. Right now, Shuffleit has a 100% rate of unpleasant surprises because it was promised that all cards from all expansions would be playable and here were are three weeks later without Stash or Inheritance implemented yet, as well as "name a card" not working properly with no workaround, plus no way to view the Journey token. Every day that goes by without this promise fulfilled drives the point home further that Shuffleit can't even live up to the one promise it has made.

The message that comes across without any further communication is that there was one promise made, and it didn't happen, and now there are no further promises or anything else. What reason is there to think that things will actually get done? What reason does anyone have to believe that we will be pleasantly surprised in three months?

The way to build that trust is to make some promises and then keep them, not to go hide in a corner and say nothing. They can be easy promises like "we plan to make a release in a week" (and don't even promise any features) or "we hope to have this feature completed in a month" (when it's really two days away and in final testing). If you think you'll have all of the cards completed and ready to release a month from today, just tell me it should be done within 3 months or something, that's how you pleasantly surprise me -- you have to set an expectation to exceed. Saying nothing for a month and then surprise! It's done! is not a pleasant surprise, unless you count the surprise as "we did something instead of absolutely nothing."

PPE:

Quote from: tufftaeh on 19 January 2017, 06:18:28 PM
I totally understand that you wish that the issues which are most important for you personally should be fixed first.

There are issues that are more important to me than fixing/implementing cards. I'm harping on this because as I mentioned above, we were led to believe all the cards would work at release and they don't.

Quote from: tufftaeh on 19 January 2017, 06:18:28 PM
I believe the people expressing discomfort with the way you express your demands are not the same people who actually work on the software. Which (I think) is actually a good thing because the latter spend their time for something which helps more users than comforting you by answering all your posts.

I actually go into this at length above. It's important that they spend some time giving status, but also Stef sent me a PM expressing his discomfort anyways. It was worded politely enough but did not answer any of the actual concerns I had. Whoops.

Quote from: tufftaeh on 19 January 2017, 06:18:28 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 03:00:06 PM
So is there a bigger release coming up?
I don't know what you would deem a bigger release.

These are Lotoreo's words, you'd have to ask him -- he speculated that there may be a "bigger release" coming up and the natural question that follows is "so is that actually going to happen?"

I'm not going to try and tell the developers how to prioritize the features they want to implement, though. It's not my place to do that.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: faust on 19 January 2017, 07:56:45 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 07:19:37 PM
It seems the developers are willing to communicate with their customers on the discord channel. That requires an account to even view, doesn't it? These forums are publicly viewable. If you're going to take the time to communicate with your customers, it seems smart to make that available to view publicly.
I also hear that they're going to a pub each Wednesday where sometimes they talk about things vaguely related to their company. I demand a live stream immediately!
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Titandrake on 20 January 2017, 03:47:59 AM
Quote from: faust on 19 January 2017, 07:56:45 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 07:19:37 PM
It seems the developers are willing to communicate with their customers on the discord channel. That requires an account to even view, doesn't it? These forums are publicly viewable. If you're going to take the time to communicate with your customers, it seems smart to make that available to view publicly.
I also hear that they're going to a pub each Wednesday where sometimes they talk about things vaguely related to their company. I demand a live stream immediately!

Come on that's just blatantly silly.

I hope this is obvious to people, but:

Personally I don't care about Stash or Inheritance that much, because of all the shiny Empires cards, but they do need to be in the game at some point. It should be obvious to everybody that they're working on it. I do wish there was more transparent customer service / addressing of complaints but it's tricky to do this well when there are a ton of things to do. See Pokemon Go launch for an example of this.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Philip on 20 January 2017, 08:19:07 AM
Quote from: Titandrake on 20 January 2017, 03:47:59 AM
I do wish there was more transparent customer service / addressing of complaints but it's tricky to do this well when there are a ton of things to do. See Pokemon Go launch for an example of this.

I'm not sure what you mean by "more transparent customer service", but most of the customer service we do is helping individual people with their individual issues (which can be account transfers, email trouble, payment problems, connection issues or any of a large number of other things). This happens mostly through these people contacting us via e-mail, on discord or pms on this forum. Only a tiny fraction of these matters are ever seen by the public eye, and out of respect for our customers' privacy we certainly intend to keep it that way.

If you mean that you'd like to see us more involved in these sort of meta debates, then I have to disappoint you. Engaging in internet debates is a huge time sink that we can't afford, and I don't see any pertinent issues raised in this thread besides the reiteration of requests for things that are already firmly in our plans (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=512.0).

Quote from: Ingix on 19 January 2017, 03:51:12 PM
I assume any progress will only affect one are two areas, and players who are not concerned with those areas will see no progress

The one thing I do want to add is that this is the unfortunate reality. Up to two days ago a number of people couldn't connect at all due to proxy/firewall issues. The solution to this took quite a bit work from our side because it had to be integrated with the server design that allows us to push updates without interrupting any running games. To those that could connect just fine this will appear irrelevant, but it's a big step nonetheless. The Russian translation we released alongside it was another huge update, but it's again something that is of no immediate benefit to someone speaking English.

Fortunately with 11 releases in our first 19 days there's already a good track-record of frequent updates that people waiting for a particular feature can look at with hope. Just also understand that there are thousands of other concerns we have to take into account in addition to someone's personal desire to swiftly play with Stash.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Titandrake on 20 January 2017, 08:51:53 AM
By more transparent customer service, I meant making it more clear that work is being done. Of course it's obvious that work is being done, but when people are angry it's easy for them to forget that work is being done on problems they don't personally have.

I'm not interested in seeing involvement in meta debates because I agree that's not particularly useful, especially when people are re-iterating the same points. I'm more interested in seeing posts like the one you just made. "Here's a problem that was affecting our users, we rolled out a fix without disrupting everything, we added language support, when the fires aren't as big we'll work on the remaining cards." I know there's a releases thread listing a changelog, but not that many people are going to click from the game through the forum link all the way to that thread. If you have bandwidth I'd consider thinking about ways to make those changes more visible.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: ravi on 20 January 2017, 11:19:52 AM
Quote from: Philip on 20 January 2017, 08:19:07 AM
Engaging in internet debates is a huge time sink that we can't afford, and I don't see any pertinent issues raised in this thread besides the reiteration of requests for things that are already firmly in our plans (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=512.0).

I think your "plans" that you link here are kind of an issue. This list is very vague and difficult to really interpret what it means. "Finish implementing cards" for example, could just mean getting Inheritance and Stash online. However, there are a number of cards that don't work completely yet (naming cards that aren't in the supply, or that are part of split piles but not the top of that split pile, for example) and fixing those cards does not seem to be part of your plans, unless that falls under the umbrella of "Finish implementing cards". Other issues like the fact that you can barely see cards when using Scheme or Harbinger are also really important but don't seem to exist in your plans.

Further you have an item called "Card animations: animating all card moves". Now, that is one aspect of a bigger project which I feel is super important: the ability to play the game without the log. Seeing all animations is one thing, but improvements to the mats and the trash are really important and according to your plans these are not a priority at all. This also includes things like better notice of duration attacks like enchantress, swamp hag and haunted woods.

I am guessing that the things I mention above actually are on your radar and are actual priorities but our only way to know what you are addressing is that list. I think this is what some people mean by transparency. It would be nice to see what your priorities are, and if they are simply what you have put in your list of missing features, then we may conclude that these things are less important than, say, autoplay features and a logsearch.

Most of your boards have a "known issues" section. However, the "Interface Issues" Board does not. I think a lot of things could be made more clear if you had a "Interface Improvements" sticky where you let us know the interface things you are working on. Especially since some of these issues are subjective with different ideas on how to solve them, this would be helpful. Like, it would be good to know if you are happy with the current Tavern Mat solution, or if it is a priority for you to make a better one. If you are happy with it, then that leaves room for users to complain about it, if you are planning to improve it and have it in that sticky then users need not continue to complain because they know it is something you are already convinced needs improving.

Personally, I have plenty of faith in you guys (overly optimistic) that you are improving these things. I am happy with how the client is going, and enjoy playing on it. It would just be a bit more reassuring to know which aspects of the interface (including things like the lobby, a proper user manual, etc. that I have not even mentioned yet) are in your priority list.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Bbl on 20 January 2017, 11:52:49 AM
Nobody here asks for engagement in Internet debates. Frankly, the time invested in commenting this topic, could have been used better for writing a monthly 'State of development' entry, giving a preview of what to expect for the next four weeks, what topics are being worked on, which topics you will start looking into, and where there is currently no clear solution in sight. Be honest and talk about things in sight, and nobody will beat you for it. Make it a sticky in the 'Announcements' section, for everyone to read, and then let the discussion go as it goes - I doubt that this is harder than to micromanage all the rumors caused by the current insecurity.

When you refer to the 'Missing Feature' List, there are a couple of problems with it:
1) It is not adhered to. Adding the Russian language support for instance is at priority number 5 - and here it is now, probably creating new bugs in need of fixing, delaying priority 1-4 topics further. If you have one priority list, and it is not adhered to - why should I as a customer trust it?

I want to stress out, that it is totally normal that these kind of lists change, depending on the feedback that pops up, how easy one feature is to implement, urgent problems, etc. But this is, why you should not make such a uncommented, numbered lists in the first place, but rather talk about the things you know and which you are currently working on. You can mention the missing features (to give an idea of the 'finished' product you strive for), but I think it should be simply a list of bullet points without numbers and a couple of caveats attached to it. This should not be your primary tool for communication.

2) It is overpromising: By setting the timeframe to 'somewhere 2017' you promise features, you have not even started working on - you have no idea how complicated these will turn out to be. Looking at this list and the current speed of development, I feel that the bottom priorities are already quite ambitious for 2017. Remember when you#v made a similar statement back in 2016 (Offline Mode, all Cards on time, etc.)? These are the promises that come back to haunt you. Compare this to a statement like, i.e. that you expect to open the ports at the end of January, solving the Proxy problem. Here you can speak with confidence and caution, and still surprise positively, if the feature comes earlier. And if its really more complicated and it gets delayed, in the monthly update post you can give reasons and no sane person will challenge it.

3) It is underpromising: As mentioned before: Saying 'At some very distant day in the future that we cannot name, we will achieve all the things we like', is nothing to evoke trust or expectations for a 'positive' surprise. You are setting yourself a bar so low, that (in theory) you cannot fail, but you will not get applause (and trust) for it either. And worse, due to problem 2), odds are goods, that you will miss even this 'low' bar at least partially, opening the flood gates for derision and flaming.

4) It is vague : As pointed out by Ravi, it is extremely vague and can mean a lot of things. This is a logical result of reaching out way to far into the future, as mentioned above. I am pretty sure, your roadmap for the next 4 weeks would look far more accurate & detailed.

Having worked with online communities before, I can say that you have an extremely polite and constructive community at your hands. I think with a a little bit of time investment for 'macro' communication (Announcements, Dev Diary, etc), you can save yourself quite some time of 'micro' communication (Forum Discussions, Discord, PMs, etc.), as the community will help to adress these, if they know your trail of thought.

From my work experience, what works best with Internet communities is
a) Honesty & communication on all the things you DO know (including, most importantly, acknowledgment of things you do not know)
b) Regularity - If you know, there will be a blog post every first Thursday of the month, the pressure for a feedback on any given topic will decrease
c) ONE clear channel of communication, accessible for all users (i.e. a sticky post in the Announcement section)
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 20 January 2017, 01:27:37 PM
Quote from: Philip on 20 January 2017, 08:19:07 AM
The one thing I do want to add is that this is the unfortunate reality. Up to two days ago a number of people couldn't connect at all due to proxy/firewall issues. The solution to this took quite a bit work from our side because it had to be integrated with the server design that allows us to push updates without interrupting any running games. To those that could connect just fine this will appear irrelevant, but it's a big step nonetheless. The Russian translation we released alongside it was another huge update, but it's again something that is of no immediate benefit to someone speaking English.

Fortunately with 11 releases in our first 19 days there's already a good track-record of frequent updates that people waiting for a particular feature can look at with hope. Just also understand that there are thousands of other concerns we have to take into account in addition to someone's personal desire to swiftly play with Stash.

I just want to say that in spite of the fact that some people think you should have been working instead of typing this message, and as silly as it might have felt for you to type it, this is exactly the kind of thing I think should be happening more. With the exception of the phrase that I bolded, this perfectly responds to my concerns (and the concerns of people like me).

I wish that this particular statement was more visible. I strongly suggest that you copy paste it (again without the bolded part) into the announcements forum.

Without communication like this, users that aren't affected by the issues you're working on will see a gap between updates and no commentary about it, and they will not understand what you've been doing. The natural (and completely valid) assumption to make is that you are sitting around playing WoW or something instead of working on Dominion. I really wish you guys would stop trying to justify not having public communication like this, there really is no substitute for it and you really, really need it. There are plenty of very loyal people around here who will take a 15-second comment you make and turn it into something like this so you can focus on your work.

What is my problem with the bolded part? Well it cheapens a real concern that your users have. There's no reason to do that.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: werothegreat on 20 January 2017, 02:59:59 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 20 January 2017, 01:27:37 PM
What is my problem with the bolded part? Well it cheapens a real concern that your users have. There's no reason to do that.

A developer should always strive to be diplomatic, not snarky. :)  Be an Obama, not a Trump.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Martin plays Piano on 20 January 2017, 03:34:41 PM
Adam, the way you humiliate the developers also cheapens their work done so far - your barefaced assumption, that they are sitting around and playing WoW is for sure not acceptable. Are you really convinced to get your wishes realised with that style of communication ? I guess due to that rude attack the desired stash implementation will be skipped for a while ...
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 20 January 2017, 04:34:51 PM
Quote from: Martin plays Piano on 20 January 2017, 03:34:41 PM
Adam, the way you humiliate the developers also cheapens their work done so far - your barefaced assumption, that they are sitting around and playing WoW is for sure not acceptable. Are you really convinced to get your wishes realised with that style of communication ? I guess due to that rude attack the desired stash implementation will be skipped for a while ...

Are you being serious right now? I actually can't tell, I'm pretty sure you're trolling me but this is just text so maybe you're being serious?

I'm not going to respond to this other than to just say that if you are serious, I think you should read my posts carefully before you say stuff like this. Actually read what I say and understand what the words mean before you go telling me what you think I'm saying and how bad it is.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Witherweaver on 20 January 2017, 05:07:03 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 19 January 2017, 01:21:35 PM
When are we going to have all of the cards implemented? This includes fixing all of the cards that require you to name a card since they're unplayable at this point, and we need a way to view the Journey Token at any time.

The software was released almost three weeks ago and at a bare minimum it should have been completely implemented by that point: this isn't even the top priority.

New releases are getting less frequent and this doesn't appear to be on anyone's radar. I kind of doubt this is ever going to be finished at this point.

To be fair, you criticize other's uses of unhelpful phrases while saying things like this.  It's a bit of an unfair jab.  (I'm assuming here that 'it' means the product itself, or at least full implementation of cards.)

I definitely get wanting time estimates, though.  And I also get not wanting to do them.  I have to provide development estimates in my job as well, and hate doing that (mostly because I feel I can't make them accurate).
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Cave-O-Sapien on 20 January 2017, 05:21:00 PM
Would a public issue tracker help with the communication issues?
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 20 January 2017, 05:24:35 PM
I don't think it's unfair at all. No other online implementation of Dominion was really finished -- there were workarounds for many things but I have never at any point been able to play with all of the Dominion cards that exist on a computer. And nothing that Shuffleit has done leads me to believe that this will be any different.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm basing this off of what I've seen so far. The Making Fun release (not the Goko one) seemed to go smoother than this one and was a better product out of the gate. They were also more responsive to their customers, but even still that wasn't finished before their contract expired.

Even if it was unfair, though, I have to be professional at my job but not here. Expectations of the developers conveying their status are higher than expectations of me posting to tell them things. I don't work for them but I'm still doing them a service by telling them that they need to talk more to their customers.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Geronimoo on 20 January 2017, 05:32:35 PM
Lul toch niet zo slap, man
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Witherweaver on 20 January 2017, 05:33:03 PM
Well, I disagree about the Making Fun release certainly.

And yeah, it will never be fully 'complete' as there will always be new features to implement, bug fixes, etc.  But in specific terms of getting Inheritance, Stash, naming cards functionality all working, it sounded like you were saying you don't think they're ever going to do that, and I don't see the basis for such a statement.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 20 January 2017, 05:41:15 PM
There's no basis to say it will happen either -- Shuffleit said it would be done already and it isn't done, and we still haven't heard any indication that they're currently working on it. I'm speculating on what I think will happen and anyone else is welcome to do the same, there's nothing unfair about that.

Naturally, with no communication from the developers it's pretty easy to assume the worst. That's kind of the point of all of this.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Witherweaver on 20 January 2017, 05:48:24 PM
Well, sure, you're welcome to think that.  I just think you're off base.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 20 January 2017, 05:52:11 PM
Quote from: Witherweaver on 20 January 2017, 05:48:24 PM
Well, sure, you're welcome to think that.  I just think you're off base.

I hope you're right, I really do.

So this means what I said wasn't an unfair jab, it's just something you disagree with. Awesome.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Witherweaver on 20 January 2017, 05:54:43 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 20 January 2017, 05:52:11 PM
Quote from: Witherweaver on 20 January 2017, 05:48:24 PM
Well, sure, you're welcome to think that.  I just think you're off base.

I hope you're right, I really do.

So this means what I said wasn't an unfair jab, it's just something you disagree with. Awesome.

I still think it's unfair, but that's where the disagreement lies. 
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Martin plays Piano on 21 January 2017, 01:10:17 PM
Adam, let's conclude our little battle here – I played my reaction card and you did it as well  :D

Given the fact, that you are the native speaker, not me, it might be possible that I did some misinterpretations within all your text here – so by the way I firstly had to learn, what does "trolling" mean and what is a "jab".

Nevertheless the posts coming up since yesterday showed me that my reply wasn't totally wrong, perhaps a little bit too rashly – and I am with Witherweaver that the discussion with all its good suggestions and opinions could be more motivating by avoiding assumptions and demanding issues with less pressure.

So I am more in the "good guy" mode being optimistic (typical Cologne attitude), that many things will become better on this platform in the nearer future, so let's play and enjoy the features being done so far. If you don't mind I will put you on my buddy list to find you somewhere in the universe of tables for further exchange and for some matches – I think this will be much more joyful than fighting in the forums.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: allanfieldhouse on 23 January 2017, 11:46:46 PM
I just want to echo the need for more communication than just the "missing features" thread. What Philip posted a couple of days ago is an excellent example of what people want to see. It shouldn't be hidden half-way down a random forum thread.

What I'd like to see is a thread with a basic "Hey, we just finished feature X, so now we're going to start working on Y. I'm thinking it'll take somewhere between 3-10 days to implement."

Communication like this would make a huge difference in many people's opinions. It's really not a huge timesink. Nobody will care if your estimate is wrong -- you just post again in 8 days and say "The previous estimate wasn't right. I'm thinking it'll take another week."
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: allanfieldhouse on 25 January 2017, 04:15:31 PM
Since my other thread got closed for duplicating this one, I guess I'll repost my Fake Shuffle iT update here.

Quote from: allanfieldhouse
Hey everybody, I just wanted to post a quick update.

We just finished/released the initial "visual trash" area. It shows the card images (stacked), so it's a lot easier to use the trash now. Unfortunately the display doesn't update if you already have the trash displaying -- we'll get that fixed soonish, but it's low priority.

The other big thing we've been working on is the "name a card" interface. It's been more tricky to implement than we were expecting because of how the concept of a "stack of cards" is coded behind-the-scenes. We're hoping to finish this up by the end of next week though.

We haven't started working on the Journey token or Inheritence/Stash yet, but those will be next up on our list. Sorry these aren't done yet.

As always, if any of these timelines change, we'll let you know in our dev update next week.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: RosieGirl on 07 February 2017, 07:48:18 PM
I don't have a dog in this fight except for the fact that I am a player with a lot of tech problems and have no clear method to report or resolve the issues. I'm a new and casual player. Let's call it like it is. The communication and support with the everyday "customers" is nonexistent. Maybe the elite players may have more ways to get answers but I don't. I suspect that the way new Dominion is operating the casual players like me will fall to the wayside over the coming year. This could have serious long term financial implications for the company. We are the bread and butter. I spent maybe $100 on Making Fun purchasing expansions. I recall having a problem related to purchasing an expansion with MF. I emailed them, received a prompt response and the issue was resolved. With ShuffleiT I am completely out in the cold.  As much as I love playing Dominion online, I don't see investing that amount again for this quality of software. My husband is a software engineer and sometimes I show him what I am dealing with and we shake our heads. He tells me this is supposed to be fun, not a form of aggravation. I see there are many loyal supporters of the new developers that will put up with anything and harshly criticize anyone who says anything negative. For example, I thought what Adam H. said was very productive and people lashed out at him claiming he was bashing the poor developers. I read it exactly the opposite. The comments in bold by the developer was very unprofessional. I think they signed up for way more than they can handle and the company owners need to step up a bit more rather than let these developers flounder. Ultimately it is their product. OK, I said my mind.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: LastFootnote on 07 February 2017, 09:06:49 PM
Well said, RosieGirl! I think you hit the nail right on the head.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: jsh on 07 February 2017, 09:28:47 PM
I don't think it's well-stated at all; there is no specific problem mentioned in the post and it looks like an observation rather than an experience. What was the problem encountered? What steps did the poster take to contact support? What was the response? There are no details there. For all we know this person is just mad they didn't get a free thing, complained verbally, got nothing because nobody heard them, and is now posting here about it. How are they "out in the cold?" There is this forum and a support Discord. Sending private messages to the admins is trivial. I've sent several already and gotten responses. Sure, my one experience means nothing and could be an outlier, but at least I can confirm I made contact and got something out of it. This person is just making vague claims.

I think it's a loud minority who are having issues here, but in fairness there is no way to know this. I'm not saying Shuffleit doesn't have a long road ahead, but the anger expressed in threads like this feels hyperbolic to me relative to the improved experience I've been having with the new client.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Icehawk78 on 07 February 2017, 10:03:32 PM
Quote from: RosieGirl on 07 February 2017, 07:48:18 PMI think they signed up for way more than they can handle and the company owners need to step up a bit more rather than let these developers flounder.

Just fyi, not responding to the rest of your post, but the developers are the company owners, there's not a separate entity other than them or anything.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on 07 February 2017, 10:28:15 PM
Quote from: jsh on 07 February 2017, 09:28:47 PM
I think it's a loud minority who are having issues here, but in fairness there is no way to know this. I'm not saying Shuffleit doesn't have a long road ahead, but the anger expressed in threads like this feels hyperbolic to me relative to the improved experience I've been having with the new client.
I agree with this, I personally love ShuffleIT and think it's an improvement from MF (browser based, empires, undo, cheaper subscriptions, better implementation for choices). I understand that many people are unhappy, and as I never really used the app (which was kinda trashy anyways) and didn't have any expansions that I have less reason to be unhappy. Still, it seems like only 5% of the users here seem to be voicing fervent complaints while the other 90-93% are fine with it.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: AdamH on 07 February 2017, 10:33:16 PM
I have several friends who ended up buying cards on Making Fun, and for one reason or another didn't get any E-mails about the transfer. They contacted me one day to ask me why Dominion wasn't working anymore. If I point them to dominion.games they are really confused: how do I get my cards? Why does my old login not work?

The only thing there for them is a tiny link in the bottom right that says "ShuffleiT Forum" -- it doesn't say help, or tech support. There's no splashscreen that's more visible to point them to where they need to go to get help. If you want to get help, there's no support E-mail or anything, you have to make an account on either these forums or Discord to actually contact the admins, which is separate from the account you make to actually play the game.

This is the new player experience before getting your account set up.

Once you get into the software, there are tons of default options that need changed. I've gotten to be OK at it now but a lot of the time we've tried to make a table, accidentally started a couple of games against a bot because they couldn't sit down because the default rating settings don't allow first-time players to sit at the same table as me (plus joining a table doesn't automatically sit you down to play). Once that's resolved, we start a game and it's the same base set kingdom I've seen a million times, so we stop playing that and I help them get to where they need to change their settings -- btw I have to do this on Skype or via text because I can't communicate this to them using the client itself unless they're sitting at the table with me -- then hopefully we don't have a game with Crown, or anything that uses a Tavern mat or Journey Token, or anything that requires you to name a card, etc.

Who knows what they would do if I wasn't there to tell them to look in the game log for what to do, or to hover over someone's name if they need to know more information, or to tell them "sorry that's not implemented yet." Who knows what they would do if they didn't have me to tell them where they could contact the devs for help setting up their account -- they didn't find it themselves.


Quote from: jsh on 07 February 2017, 09:28:47 PM
I think it's a loud minority who are having issues here, but in fairness there is no way to know this. I'm not saying Shuffleit doesn't have a long road ahead, but the anger expressed in threads like this feels hyperbolic to me relative to the improved experience I've been having with the new client.

I'm glad you've been having an improved experience. I really am.

I've gone through this about 15 times with people. I've been very careful to only tell them "it's still under development, there are more features and interface changes coming" and not bias them with my own opinions. I've stayed as optimistic as possible (I want to play this game with my friends! I actually have an indirect financial interest in the success of this client now that I'm a YouTube partner!) and done my best to sell them on continuing to play on the client.

About half of them either just didn't bother to play online anymore based on this first-time experience, or they told me to call them back when it was as good as MF was when it left. The other half play somewhat regularly.

Every single person, though, told me that the new client as it is right now is significantly worse than Making Fun was. And yes I agree with them, this thing has a long way to go.

This is the new-player experience, and even though this is a small sample size, it's larger than your sample size. None of my friends have posted on this forum (well IceHawk is an IRL friend of mine but he's not posting here because of me, I didn't bring him to the new client). I feel like there is a HUGE silent majority out there who never make it to these forums and are turned off from the client because it's too hard to just play a game with all of their cards.

In a perfect world, they would have a completely implemented, properly tested product at release, and they could completely focus on the new player experience. That would set them up the best for financial success in the long term. Unfortunately, here we are, the developers are (rightly) very busy with improving their product and there's nobody left to make their support more visible to the people who need it most.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: allanfieldhouse on 07 February 2017, 11:14:07 PM
I think Adam's new player description is pretty accurate (and troubling).

I think the "loud minority" idea is completely backwards. Most people don't even know this forum exists. Judging from the initial impressions threads on here, f.ds, reddit, and bgg, the response to the new client was mixed, but mostly negative. The average player thinks the new version is worse than what it replaced. A lot of serious players like it better.




The idea behind this thread is that people want to like the new version, but we need some reassurance from the developers rather than blind trust. Just a little communication.

The last release was ~2 weeks ago. They could've said "we're working on X, it's going to take a while", but they didn't. Instead, all we see is no progress for 2 weeks and counting.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Lotoreo on 08 February 2017, 12:21:19 AM
Edit: while I meant every word of it, I probably should not have posted it.. Deleted.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: LastFootnote on 08 February 2017, 12:26:55 AM
You can mock and marginalize people all you want, Lotereo. It certainly won't help Shuffle iT succeed.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: ElisabetK on 08 February 2017, 03:19:01 AM
AdamH is making good points here. I wrote a long post about my experience as a newbie here and I'll vouch for the fact that it was hard to find where to go, what to do, and so on. I wasn't trying to bring over an MF subscription or play a live game with friends (or anyone) and I'll tell you the interface is mystifying.

Honestly I can't imagine anyone who isn't already familiar with Dominion bothering with the current set up here. I know it's a great game, so it's worth waiting for the developers to figure this out, but then I also thought there'd be a nicer welcome for new folks by this time. Meanwhile I'm figuring out various quirks and have even played some live games.

My fear is that the developers are designing this for themselves and their friends, who know the game and know what that other help forum is and already have accounts they use here and wherever. I'm all for implementing all the arcane game features of various Dominion expansions, but I think it's way more important to make the game fun and usable and *intuitive* for newcomers. If the game is great (it is) and the interface great too (the possibility is there) there's a huge number of people who will try it out and stay, and who will want to pay for subscriptions.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: werothegreat on 08 February 2017, 11:08:33 PM
Communication is a good thing.  People much prefer to hear "this is what we're working on, give it a couple weeks" as opposed to just nothing.  I'm not saying it has to be Phillip or Stef - it could be Watno or Seprix or LaLight or anyone - just have someone dedicated to keeping players up to date, and just try to relieve some tension over when things are going to be implemented/fixed.  A community manager of sorts, I guess.  A PR person.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: RosieGirl on 11 February 2017, 01:09:10 AM
Dear JSH - "For all we know this person is just mad they didn't get a free thing" That's really nice. I express my opinion and according to you I'm trying to get something.
"there is no specific problem mentioned in the post and it looks like an observation rather than an experience" I would have to write a book to explain the various problems not to mention the issues are not finite. They change from week to week. Some appear, some go away, etc. I play on three different devices. The issues are different depending on which I am using. I have reached out and was told to go to the forum. I am not a tech savvy gamer. I am a retiree. There might be more of us out there than you think. My post was not angry, just honest. It takes a certain type of personality to stick your neck out by posting on this forum. Not everyone has the guts. Like previously stated in other posts, there is a silent majority.They will lose interest if the problems are not resolved.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: jsh on 11 February 2017, 01:38:13 AM
Quote from: RosieGirl on 11 February 2017, 01:09:10 AM
Dear JSH - "For all we know this person is just mad they didn't get a free thing" That's really nice. I express my opinion and according to you I'm trying to get something.
"there is no specific problem mentioned in the post and it looks like an observation rather than an experience" I would have to write a book to explain the various problems not to mention the issues are not finite. They change from week to week. Some appear, some go away, etc. I play on three different devices. The issues are different depending on which I am using. I have reached out and was told to go to the forum. I am not a tech savvy gamer. I am a retiree. There might be more of us out there than you think. My post was not angry, just honest. It takes a certain type of personality to stick your neck out by posting on this forum. Not everyone has the guts. Like previously stated in other posts, there is a silent majority.They will lose interest if the problems are not resolved.

I'm not saying you don't have a potential point or that your opinion doesn't matter, but your post did not mention the issues you had found, and neither did this one. You once again just claimed there were tons of issues, with is completely vague with regard to what actually needs to be fixed. This is why I don't see it as adding to any kind of conversation; my disagreement was entirely with LF's "well-stated!" claim, not your post necessarily. Venting about a general perception of there being issues is fine and all, but it certainly isn't productive.

I am a social misfit who can barely stand talking to people on the phone, so I can feel the pain of people not having the guts to reach out somewhere, but it's actually not worth exploring at this point how many of those people are out there. There being/not being a majority of them ultimately doesn't help the developers out as they are still developing the game. Maybe that will change in the future and they'll focus on marketing, but that's not where we are. In my opinion, it's much better for the developers to focus on adding new features than to spend time reading posts like these. After all, let's say they finish an ios port--that fixes the game for a bunch of people complaining and they didn't even have to trudge through a bunch of internet posts about feelings!

A post explaining specific issues/suggesting fixes is just better than acknowledging some people aren't happy to the wind. Plenty of posters here are being productive in the various bug report and feature suggestion threads; threads that become a bunch of blabbering like this aren't really. General complaining is just a smokescreen wasting time should the developers actually spend time reading it.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Polk5440 on 13 February 2017, 05:24:33 PM
Quote from: jsh on 11 February 2017, 01:38:13 AM
A post explaining specific issues/suggesting fixes is just better than acknowledging some people aren't happy to the wind. Plenty of posters here are being productive in the various bug report and feature suggestion threads; threads that become a bunch of blabbering like this aren't really. General complaining is just a smokescreen wasting time should the developers actually spend time reading it.


This forum is full of specific bugs, problems, and suggestions. Reporting one should not be a right of passage to be allowed to voice an opinion.

Quote from: RosieGirl on 07 February 2017, 07:48:18 PM
I'm a new and casual player....I recall having a problem related to purchasing an expansion with MF. I emailed them, received a prompt response and the issue was resolved. With ShuffleiT I am completely out in the cold.  As much as I love playing Dominion online, I don't see investing that amount again for this quality of software. My husband is a software engineer and sometimes I show him what I am dealing with and we shake our heads. He tells me this is supposed to be fun, not a form of aggravation.

I found RosieGirl's posts (especially the snippet above) expressed useful impressions from an important demographic that will be underrepresented on these forums by the vary nature of the method of feedback solicitation.

Those "specific" bugs and UI issues add up. And honestly, if the game is not at a point where small fixes would really change the opinion of the user, then the devs need to know that, too. Dominion Online was obviously incomplete at launch and remains so currently. It's important for various new people of different demographics to continually and repeatedly point that out. 


Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Nyarpy on 16 February 2017, 06:13:10 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 07 February 2017, 10:33:16 PM
About half of them either just didn't bother to play online anymore based on this first-time experience, or they told me to call them back when it was as good as MF was when it left.

This describes me and my wife perfectly. I followed the forums so I knew all about the changes coming up, how to transfer our purchase, etc., so at least I didn't consider that a stumbling block. But then we were completely unable to get a game going on Kindle Fire vs. Kindle Fire (the way we had been playing nearly daily for months on MF), so we gave up. I now look at the forums every couple weeks, see that it looks like no major progress has been made, and lament that we're wasting our free year subscription.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: JunkDealer on 16 February 2017, 07:00:08 PM
Quote from: Nyarpy on 16 February 2017, 06:13:10 PM
I now look at the forums every couple weeks, see that it looks like no major progress has been made, and lament that we're wasting our free year subscription.

I've had to re-frame things in my mind so that I don't feel so pessimistic.  That re-frame is that we haven't been given a free years subscription out of kindness or because of money spent on another product with the same name. It isn't that they were doing it to showcase their new product.  Instead, the free subscription is because the product is still in development.  Thinking about it that way makes it more tolerable, to me at least, that it's still missing almost all of the features that I enjoyed about the MF version (and ultimately why I bought all available expansions on that platform).  For clarity those are:
- Campaign Mode (interesting variants and different challenges/bots)
- Bots with different characteristics/levels
- an interface that let me play it is a game and ignore the logs
- platform specific clients (iOS/Android/PC) so that idiosyncrasies between clients didn't impact play

Perhaps this re-framing will help others come to terms with the state of the current implementation.  Tying this back to this thread (communication), I would have been more understanding if this is how it was communicated at the beginning and before launch.  That is, not as a free year subscription, but a transition subscription while the product is finalized.  With that in mind perhaps throw a BETA indication on the main screen to identify that it isn't at full capability yet.  I wouldn't take it to the same extent Google did though (https://gmail.googleblog.com/2009/07/gmail-leaves-beta-launches-back-to-beta.html).

I'm still hopeful that the ShuffleIt crew will come to the realization that communication is a fundamental part of product development and customer satisfaction.  Once they've realized this then start providing some meaningful progress updates and forecasts.  Ultimately that's what I think this thread has been asking for.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Cave-O-Sapien on 16 February 2017, 07:09:13 PM
Quote from: JunkDealer on 16 February 2017, 07:00:08 PM
I'm still hopeful that the ShuffleIt crew will come to the realization that communication is a fundamental part of product development and customer satisfaction.  Once they've realized this then start providing some meaningful progress updates and forecasts.  Ultimately that's what I think this thread has been asking for.

YES. The relative silence over the past month or so has been really disconcerting.

Given the incomplete state of the game at the moment I would expect frequent official updates across multiple communication channels.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on 16 February 2017, 09:03:02 PM
Quote from: Nyarpy on 16 February 2017, 06:13:10 PM
But then we were completely unable to get a game going on Kindle Fire vs. Kindle Fire.
Was it a browser problem, or the fact that they don't have a dedicated app?

EDIT: It doesn't want to load, you're right.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: santamonica811 on 17 February 2017, 02:12:59 AM
Quote from: ThetaSigma12 on 16 February 2017, 09:03:02 PM
Quote from: Nyarpy on 16 February 2017, 06:13:10 PM
But then we were completely unable to get a game going on Kindle Fire vs. Kindle Fire.
Was it a browser problem, or the fact that they don't have a dedicated app?

EDIT: It doesn't want to load, you're right.

Interesting.  It's working (has always was working) on my own Kindle.  Screen is small (8 inches) so I don't play there much--and I'd never play with a live opponent, as it takes forever to zoom in to select a card, then zoom out to navigate around, then zoom in again to click on my next move/step, then zoom out...etc etc etc.  Fine to do with the bot.  But not a real game.

In other words, it works for me.  But not particularly well or smoothly.
Title: Re: Communication about releases & future plans
Post by: Nyarpy on 20 February 2017, 11:18:43 PM
Quote from: ThetaSigma12 on 16 February 2017, 09:03:02 PM
Quote from: Nyarpy on 16 February 2017, 06:13:10 PM
But then we were completely unable to get a game going on Kindle Fire vs. Kindle Fire.
Was it a browser problem, or the fact that they don't have a dedicated app?

It was a browser problem, possibly combined with a matchmaking problem. When I made a table, my wife could join the table as a spectator but couldn't join the game because our rankings weren't close enough. I attempted to follow the suggestion to change the min/max rating difference, and that worked if I was setting up the game on Chrome on my laptop, but those options couldn't be changed on the Kindle. So we couldn't play a Kindle vs. Kindle game.

This past weekend, though, I finally tried it again, and we were able to play our first 4 or 5 games on the new system on our Kindles. Both of our opinions can be summarized as, "Nearly everything was better on the Making Fun app, but this certainly beats the past 7 weeks of Dominion withdrawl." We haven't played on anything but our Kindles (and don't really intend to), but I'd bet most of these problems are limited to Kindles and possibly other small tablets. This probably isn't the perfect thread to list my first impressions, but here goes anyway:

-First and foremost, it's nearly impossible to read the description of a card during your buy phase without buying it. We've taken to asking each other to read the cards out loud if we forget something because it's too big of a risk for the player whose turn it is to try to read it.

-Occasionally when we do enlarge a card to read it, it gets stuck on the screen and won't go away, and you can't do anything. Close the tab, sign back in, works again. This happened at least once per game to one of us. At least the reconnect works unlike on MF, since it's absolutely necessary in order to play a game to completion.

-Constant need to keep switching from portrait to landscape. Playing works best in landscape - everything's too small in portrait. But there are some things that can't be done in landscape. The box that shows how many actions/buys you have covers up your hand cards so you can't see if you have 2 Estates/3 coppers or 3 Estates/2 Coppers. You can click that box to make it disappear, but then it's gone the rest of your turn when you need it. But if you turn it to portrait, you can read those counters on your cards, then turn it back to play your turn. Then on your opponent's turn, she plays an Envoy or a Knight and you have to make a choice, but the choice doesn't even show up in landscape. You have to turn it to portrait to choose (or to even realize you need to make a choice unless you're paying very close attention).

-Minor annoyance with Tavern mats. On MF, they were always visible - you wouldn't forget you had a Wine Merchant on them. My wife did forget she had one on there for nearly the whole game. We finally did figure out how to see them, but having a tiny always-visible icon like on MF would be great.

-Having to make some choices by clicking tiny text in the log is really weird. The log should be a log. Decent-sized buttons should be how you make choices. I can't remember off the top of my head which choices made you do that, but it was very non-obvious what we were supposed to do.

I doubt these problems will be enough to stop us from playing, now that we actually can. But the first 3 I listed are very annoying and I hope won't be issues for long. I wouldn't recommend the game to non-addicts in its current state, at least if they're playing on a Kindle like us. But it's good enough for those willing to put up with it to get a Dominion fix.