I find it pathetic when players request multiple undos to change strategy, especially when those players are around level 60. I was quite perplexed that a player first forged 2 bishops to get a province, then played 2 cards, only to request multiple undos, to use bishop on the forge.
Maybe there should be a limit on what undos can do.
Quote from: sisif on 10 June 2017, 10:59:27 PM
I find it pathetic when players request multiple undos to change strategy, especially when those players are around level 60. I was quite perplexed that a player first forged 2 bishops to get a province, then played 2 cards, only to request multiple undos, to use bishop on the forge.
Maybe there should be a limit on what undos can do.
I think it's okay to request multiple undos in a row as long as new information hasn't been revealed. To be fair, the interface is not ideal for undos that involve multiple-click cards. Not everyone knows how to use /undo x either. The plan is probably to make some undos allowed and some require confirmation. Stuff like what you're mentioning would then still be possible without annoying the other player.
With that said, you can always blacklist those players.
I find it perfectly reasonable that somebody should do something, realize that they miscounted something, and then request to undo it, regardless of level, and especially when there is no new information revealed. Good on you for allowing them to, although why you should find it pathetic is beyond me.
I am glad that people post about these things here before I have to encounter them in a game.
Edit: Apparently those 2 card plays drew 4 cards, which is fairly significant new information from the time of this post. Good reason to be unhappy about the undo but still a bad reason to call people's actions pathetic.
Quote from: tracer on 11 June 2017, 12:55:20 AM
I find it perfectly reasonable that somebody should do something, realize that they miscounted something, and then request to undo it, regardless of level, and especially when there is no new information revealed. Good on you for allowing them to, although why you should find it pathetic is beyond me.
I am glad that people post about these things here before I have to encounter them in a game.
Of course it is perfectly reasonable to play
1. forge -> 2 bishop
2. draw 4 cards
3. realize that well maybe you should do something else
4. undo steps one by one
5. trash the forge.
That's how things work in life, you get to do shit, then rewind and pretend it did not happen :-\
Quote from: sisif on 11 June 2017, 10:57:18 AM
Quote from: tracer on 11 June 2017, 12:55:20 AM
I find it perfectly reasonable that somebody should do something, realize that they miscounted something, and then request to undo it, regardless of level, and especially when there is no new information revealed. Good on you for allowing them to, although why you should find it pathetic is beyond me.
I am glad that people post about these things here before I have to encounter them in a game.
Of course it is perfectly reasonable to play
1. forge -> 2 bishop
2. draw 4 cards
3. realize that well maybe you should do something else
4. undo steps one by one
5. trash the forge.
That's how things work in life, you get to do shit, then rewind and pretend it did not happen :-\
Sorry but I still don't get what you want sisif.
The system allows for any undo requests. The whole point of making them requests (and not just undoing it, like we had in the alpha) is that you have the option to deny it when you don't agree with what your opponent wants.
Personally I grand almost all undo requests, but there have been a few times I didn't understand what my opponent wanted and I simply asked in chat. It has never even resulted in a bad tension - they always either had a perfectly good reason I didn't realize, or they came to the conclusion the undo request was nonsense all by themselves.
If you want to propose an algorithm to auto-deny some undo requests, feel free to do so. But it has to be a pretty concrete algorithm before I can even consider implementing it... not just "a limit on what undos can do". And my gut feeling is that defining a good algorithm here is an impossible task.
I would say that no undos should be made if you drew one or more cards. Undos should not be part of a winning strategy.
Quote from: Stef on 11 June 2017, 11:09:10 AM
If you want to propose an algorithm to auto-deny some undo requests, feel free to do so. But it has to be a pretty concrete algorithm before I can even consider implementing it... not just "a limit on what undos can do". And my gut feeling is that defining a good algorithm here is an impossible task.
As jsh noted, the key thing is new information. IRL if someone has no new information I always let them undo, and if they have new information I rarely do. Sometimes they are all, oh I was going to play Village first, I had it in my hand, and well I'm not made of stone.
I think it's fine if the system is made of stone, for rated games. I would automatically allow undos with no new information, and automatically reject other ones. For unrated games I would let you ask for more generosity like you can now.
The stingy version of "no new information" is, you haven't accessed your deck or uncovered a Knight/Ruins, and the other player hasn't done anything or been given the option to do something. The generous more-programming version is the same except you track how many known cards there are for each player on each deck, and accessing those doesn't count against you.
Quote from: Donald X. on 11 June 2017, 06:15:08 PM
The generous more-programming version is the same except you track how many known cards there are for each player on each deck, and accessing those doesn't count against you.
I'm playing an Apothecary/Wishing Well deck, and I forget the order I'm putting my cards back. If I name the wrong card to my Wishing Well even though it's "known" what that card is, I would prefer if I could deny that undo while allowing all other undos that didn't actually reveal new information to my opponent.
I think I'm probably one of the most generous people I know when it comes to undos, but I wouldn't think of allowing anyone that particular undo.
The important point is that you can deny any undos you wish, or as Stef said, you can ask why. Personally I only ask for undos if I clicked the wrong card or did something just stupid like forget that I only had one action left. In the situation initially described, I would probably refuse the undo. (Though, I've never before refused an undo and can't recall any undo request that I thought crossed the line.)
Honestly I dont want to deal with players who undo 4-5 times during one game, it just makes me think that we are both working towards his win. If there is one thing I appreciate, it is the blacklist. I may me too demanding when it comes to 'etiquette', but I see no point in spending my time playing against runners or undoers.
I generally allow undos if no hidden information has been revealed, or if it might have been revealed but it's an obvious play error like playing a card draw card before a village. Or for treasure order-play issues (like dumping fortune, gold/gold/silver, undo request, I've seen this one a stupid number of times and done it at least once).
Special call out to undos in Enchantress games, especially Enchantress/lighthouse since it can be extremely difficult to tell what the gamestate actually is on your turn. I am super lenient with undos in all enchantress games.
I disallow undos if they get stupid excessive or if they seem strategic. Like Governor picking trashing, he trashes an estate for a $4 I trash an estate for a $3, undo request pops up that's getting disallowed. Wishing well undos are disallowed on general principle.
I'm generally ok with refusing undo's on new information, but even then it can be ok in some instances. For example, recently my opponent played a fortress to draw one card, then requested an undo because he and forgotten to call his Transmogrify. I'm very sympathetic to this as I frequently forget to call reserves, and it was clear to me he wouldn't change his plan for the turn based on the card he revealed.
I am however, sympathetic to Sisif's complaint. I feel that undo is ok as misclick protection or UI mistakes, but I don't really like people going back mid turn to alter their strategy. In his place I think that I would ask what he is wanting and if he explains that he wants to totally change his plan for the turn, I'd probably refuse.
When my opponent does something which is obviously wrong, I ask them via chat if they want to undo it and silently count to 10 before I continue playing.
Examples*: Buy Familiar when curses are gone, buy an Estate after they already hit Wall, Counterfeit the Gold instead of the Spoils .....
I play to win, and I want to win. But I want to feel that I won because of my better play, not because of a misclick or even a distracted click my opponent made.
*they all have edge cases. but thats not the point here
This is still a tough one for me, and I find that my attitude toward it is rather inconsistent. It depends on my mood, which can also depend on how well I'm playing.
I'm very generous with obvious misclicks/UI-induced errors (like Crown with no actions).
I'll even allow undo after misclicks or mistakes that have revealed new information -- within reason.
The area I'm undecided on are cases where the player has simply changed their mind (for example, which buys to execute or which terminal to play) even if no new information has been revealed. I generally allow these, too, but I feel less okay with it. Not sure why that is.
In all cases where it's not obvious, I prefer that the Undo request is accompanied by a message explaining the reason.
Quote from: Cave-O-Sapien on 27 June 2017, 11:48:11 PM
This is still a tough one for me, and I find that my attitude toward it is rather inconsistent. It depends on my mood, which can also depend on how well I'm playing.
I'm very generous with obvious misclicks/UI-induced errors (like Crown with no actions).
I'll even allow undo after misclicks or mistakes that have revealed new information -- within reason.
The area I'm undecided on are cases where the player has simply changed their mind (for example, which buys to execute or which terminal to play) even if no new information has been revealed. I generally allow these, too, but I feel less okay with it. Not sure why that is.
In all cases where it's not obvious, I prefer that the Undo request is accompanied by a message explaining the reason.
Quoting myself to highlight a case that happened in a game yesterday which (to me) illustrates one of downsides of enforcing a strict Undo policy.
In a close game my opponent had several (6? I think) Wild Hunts and was likely going to play all of them, gain the last Estate and buy a Province.
After the fifth Wild Hunt was played for cards, my opponent had no actions left, and couldn't play the 6th Wild Hunt (presumably in hand) to gain the Estate and the points on the Wild Hunt pile. He/she requested an Undo. I pointedly asked if it was truly a misclick or a too-late realization that there weren't enough actions. He/she said it was a simple misclick. I then granted the 'Undo' and felt fine about it.
I bring this up because:
A) There was new information revealed by the terminal WIld Hunt, but it was hardly relevant. The decision to Undo could not have been influenced by that new information (in this case).
B) I chose to believe my opponent that this was a simple misclick; if the system had no means to allow this Undo, I would've felt terrible winning on such a misclick.
My thoughts on undo:
1) I like it as a feature. Misclicks happen.
2) Each request is just that, a request. You are at the whim of the other player if you are asking for an undo. You had 5 minutes to plan out each action, it's your fault that you misplayed. May your opponent have mercy on your soul! I don't think I have ever denied an undo, but if someone denied me one I wouldn't blame them, I'd blame myself.
The main thing undo denying is good for is identifying people you never want to play Dominion with again.
I think it has already been stated that undoes to decisions from which no new information has been gained will at some point be automatic, which will be a good step forward even if it irritates some of the people I never want to play Dominion with again.
Also, taking away people's fun by enforcing their concentration and counting errors when you have full ability to rectify them is absolutely something that you are at fault for.
Just to clarify, you're saying the person denying an undo is at fault for taking away their opponent's fun? I don't follow that logic. In the event that an undo is denied, %100 of the fault and responsibility lies on the person requesting the undo and they frankly need to suck it up. I agree with your first point that making some undo's automatic would be great as long as new info hasn't been revealed (and as long as it doesn't reset the 5 minute per action timer).
Quote from: tracer on 06 July 2017, 08:24:47 PM
I think it has already been stated that undoes to decisions from which no new information has been gained will at some point be automatic,
I certainly recall having read that too. No doubt implementing it in the general case would be quite time-consuming because of the need to evaluate correctly whether new information has been gained. There are, however, some simple cases where it could be implemented very quickly and probably should be, simply because it's an undo of something that the opponent doesn't even know has happened. Consider the following scenario that happened to me yesterday:
- I played an Action that drew a card and gave me an action point.
- I clicked on 'End Actions'.
- I realised that I'd meant to play another Action card first.
- I clicked on 'Undo'.
- The undo request was denied.
A first I was surprised that my opponent had denied the undo request, but I almost immediately realised that to him it seemed that I was trying to undo the play of the Action that drew a card: there would have been nothing in his log to indicate that I had chosen to end my Action phase and that it was that that I was wanting to undo.
I could, I suppose, have tried explaining the nature of the undo request via chat, but I had no idea whether my opponent spoke English, so I just accepted the consequences of my carelessness and got on with the game.