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Dominion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Moat_Man on 04 August 2017, 10:02:01 AM

Title: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Moat_Man on 04 August 2017, 10:02:01 AM
Today Jay from Rio Grande announced another expansion for Dominion called Nocturne. It's release date is tentatively October 18th, 2017. Are there plans to implement Nocturne into Dominion Online and if so, how long after the physical release can we expect to see it implemented online?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Stef on 04 August 2017, 10:56:34 AM
Today Jay from Rio Grande announced another expansion for Dominion called Nocturne. It's release date is tentatively October 18th, 2017. Are there plans to implement Nocturne into Dominion Online and if so, how long after the physical release can we expect to see it implemented online?

Thanks.

Yes we will certainly have Nocturne online, ASAP.

Currently working on "disconnect issues", I will start implementing Nocturne next week.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: refried on 08 August 2017, 11:13:20 PM
Will it be part of an existing subscription level?
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jsh on 08 August 2017, 11:43:54 PM
Will it be part of an existing subscription level?

Like Empires did for MakingFun account rollovers, Nocturne will increase the cost of the Gold subscription, so current Gold subscribers will need to add it on.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jeebus on 12 August 2017, 02:27:10 AM
As some of us have said before, it would be much better to fix the current bugs before starting to implement new cards. I'm not necessarily talking about all bugs; there are probably some that are very rare and difficult to pin down. But the vast majority of the bugs should be fixed. Many of them have been present since launch, and adding new cards first that will inevitably introduce new bugs doesn't seem like a good idea. There's also missing functionality that should be implemented first, like being able to view full logs of past games, deck contents at end of game, and missing info in the running game log. There are also several problematic interface issues (that you could count as bugs).
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: kieranmillar on 12 August 2017, 09:19:59 AM
If I recall correctly, I remember reading somewhere before the launch of this online client either Donald or Stef saying that part of the contract was that any new expansion needs to be rolled out at the same time as the physical release.

So implementing the new expansion likely takes priority over all else.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: dane on 12 August 2017, 10:02:07 AM
If my experience is anything to by - nearly 300 games of which only one was affected by a bug - I suspect most players would prefer to see Nocturne implemented before the remaining bugs are fixed.  I suspect that most of the remaining bugs are difficult to track down because they are not obviously related to the implementation of a particular card.  In particular I suspect that it's significant that several bug reports relate to games that cannot be reloaded because of an internal error.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Stef on 12 August 2017, 10:04:33 AM
If I recall correctly, I remember reading somewhere before the launch of this online client either Donald or Stef saying that part of the contract was that any new expansion needs to be rolled out at the same time as the physical release.

So implementing the new expansion likely takes priority over all else.

You're not exactly spot on but in the right direction. Regardless of the contract both Donald and I are eventually driven by what the majority of players want, and they tend to value new cards over fixing obscure bugs.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of fixing the interface here, it's just that new sets are generally very much appreciated by the community.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Reinder on 12 August 2017, 03:04:23 PM
I completely agree with Stef here. Yes, there are still a lot of things to improve but I'd take new cards over improving any time of the day. Besides my personal preference, I guess there is also the economics of having something new to sell.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Donald X. on 12 August 2017, 04:29:51 PM
You're not exactly spot on but in the right direction. Regardless of the contract both Donald and I are eventually driven by what the majority of players want, and they tend to value new cards over fixing obscure bugs.

I'm not trying to downplay the importance of fixing the interface here, it's just that new sets are generally very much appreciated by the community.
I agree. There are very important other things, and yet the new expansion is even more important.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jeebus on 12 August 2017, 08:52:22 PM
One thing is more or less obscure bugs (of which there seems to be quite a few). Another thing is basic stuff like player tokens not being displayed and the after-game log having wrong information. I don't even feel like starting to list all the other equally important stuff, it's been done before, but I guess I should, but I actually don't have time right now. Anyway, it's very strange to me that people would rather have new cards than basic flaws fixed. You can always play with the new cards by actually buying the physical set and playing.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jsh on 12 August 2017, 09:19:47 PM
One thing is more or less obscure bugs (of which there seems to be quite a few). Another thing is basic stuff like player tokens not being displayed and the after-game log having wrong information. I don't even feel like starting to list all the other equally important stuff, it's been done before, but I guess I should, but I actually don't have time right now. Anyway, it's very strange to me that people would rather have new cards than basic flaws fixed. You can always play with the new cards by actually buying the physical set and playing.

I think you're in a very small minority on this one.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: JW on 13 August 2017, 03:36:45 AM
One thing is more or less obscure bugs (of which there seems to be quite a few). Another thing is basic stuff like player tokens not being displayed and the after-game log having wrong information. I don't even feel like starting to list all the other equally important stuff, it's been done before, but I guess I should, but I actually don't have time right now. Anyway, it's very strange to me that people would rather have new cards than basic flaws fixed. You can always play with the new cards by actually buying the physical set and playing.

I think you're in a very small minority on this one.

Of the Dominion players who have played 500 or more games, people might care more about a new set. But for people who aren't that into Dominion, but could be, having another set isn't a big deal.  Having another set makes playing all cards games even more of a hurdle for new players than it already is, and Dominion games are plenty interesting these days without a new set.  Having a better interface would help people get into Dominion in the first place. 

I find it strange that ShuffleIT would prioritize having lots of volunteers help moderate a tournament (for the most serious players) over essential user information like an official FAQ.  The closest we have is an unofficial guide last updated in March.  http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1100.msg3053#msg3053 There's no sign of a tutorial that teaches people to play Dominion on the horizon, and offline play seems even further away.  The priorities of the existing customer base that already loves competitive Dominion seem to be taken too seriously compared to the potential customers. I'm glad for me that Nocturne is first, and I don't need a FAQ, but it's been over seven months and I still won't recommend the site to people who are new to Dominion because it's not a good enough experience, and I don't want it to drive them away.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on 13 August 2017, 04:08:32 AM
I find it strange that ShuffleIT would prioritize having lots of volunteers help moderate a tournament (for the most serious players) over essential user information like an official FAQ.
I find it strange to assume the volunteer efforts reflect the priorities of ShuffleIT, rather than, you know, the priorities of the volunteers. Who presumably decided to organize a tournament on their own and then asked Stef for permission to host it on these forums rather than the other places. I guess he could have said "No, not until you write up a FAQ for me".

Anyway, it happens that some people are working on an updated FAQ as well.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Donald X. on 13 August 2017, 05:33:07 AM
Of the Dominion players who have played 500 or more games, people might care more about a new set. But for people who aren't that into Dominion, but could be, having another set isn't a big deal.  Having another set makes playing all cards games even more of a hurdle for new players than it already is, and Dominion games are plenty interesting these days without a new set.  Having a better interface would help people get into Dominion in the first place. 
Delaying the new set isn't going to get a new-players-ready version done meaningfully faster. A new set is an especially easy task, as has been demonstrated in the past here. Aside from occasional tricky cards like Inheritance, or cards that require unique interface stuff like Stash, it's all trivial. At the same time the new set is a significant draw for not-new-to-Dominion players.

It's moot as it's contractual. MF took forever to get Adventures up. So RGG has it in the contract that the expansions have to go up in a timely manner. This wasn't RGG saying "because that's more important than the user interface" or any such thing. It was RGG saying "man it sucked when the expansions weren't going up in a timely manner; let's make sure that doesn't happen." And since that's the contract, the expansions will go up in a timely manner.

Having an additional set is not a meaningful hurdle-increase for new players. They are seeing 10 new cards each game for a while any which way, unless of course they play all base set against a bot or fellow new player or what have you.

I find it strange that ShuffleIT would prioritize having lots of volunteers help moderate a tournament (for the most serious players) over essential user information like an official FAQ.
These volunteers you speak of, they are volunteering. The nature of this is that they do things they feel like doing. It should be no surprise that volunteers who are enfranchised players like doing things that enfranchised players like having done. It's not Shuffle iT prioritizing anything.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jeebus on 13 August 2017, 07:17:20 AM
One thing is more or less obscure bugs (of which there seems to be quite a few). Another thing is basic stuff like player tokens not being displayed and the after-game log having wrong information. I don't even feel like starting to list all the other equally important stuff, it's been done before, but I guess I should, but I actually don't have time right now. Anyway, it's very strange to me that people would rather have new cards than basic flaws fixed. You can always play with the new cards by actually buying the physical set and playing.

I think you're in a very small minority on this one.

You're making the same mistake that has been pointed out before. You're confusing the vocal minority in this message board with the totality of the online player base. Most people who post here regularly, so the people you mostly hear from, are experienced players who by now already know all of the quirks of the implementation. For instance the fact that have to have to hover over the user name to see certain cards that are in play or set aside, which crazily is still not fixed, will totally confuse all new players. Even if we talk about all the users still actively playing, those are the people who have not been driven away by a confusing or faulty experience. Most people who have a bad experience, will not post about it here for you to read, they will simply not return.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: 007Bistromath on 13 August 2017, 09:25:55 AM
Ha. This is funny.

For a couple months now, I've been wanting to make a thread along the lines of "it's always bugged me that the only type with only one card in it is Curse." I didn't, because my experience with gaming fora is overwhelmingly that people hate kicking around unrealistic ideas for the fun of it. If the thing wouldn't ever be implemented in a million years, they don't want to talk about it, and always refuse to understand that you're not making a serious suggestion.

Today I log in and see this. I have no idea if there will be Curse cards other than Curse in Nocturne, but that's certainly in keeping with the theme it presents. That's some validation. :P
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Donald X. on 13 August 2017, 04:48:06 PM
One thing is more or less obscure bugs (of which there seems to be quite a few). Another thing is basic stuff like player tokens not being displayed and the after-game log having wrong information. I don't even feel like starting to list all the other equally important stuff, it's been done before, but I guess I should, but I actually don't have time right now. Anyway, it's very strange to me that people would rather have new cards than basic flaws fixed. You can always play with the new cards by actually buying the physical set and playing.

I think you're in a very small minority on this one.

You're making the same mistake that has been pointed out before. You're confusing the vocal minority in this message board with the totality of the online player base. Most people who post here regularly, so the people you mostly hear from, are experienced players who by now already know all of the quirks of the implementation. For instance the fact that have to have to hover over the user name to see certain cards that are in play or set aside, which crazily is still not fixed, will totally confuse all new players. Even if we talk about all the users still actively playing, those are the people who have not been driven away by a confusing or faulty experience. Most people who have a bad experience, will not post about it here for you to read, they will simply not return.
You don't have enough information to know what jsh considered there; you just disagree with his conclusion.

It is easy to ignore the people who don't say anything, and thus have a less accurate picture of what fans want; that's straightforward. People who don't play Dominion at all are not going to get anything from yet another expansion appearing. People who play Dominion but not online may try the online version because of the new expansion, and you can argue that that's bad, that we want to save those people for when you can tell what Duration cards are out and never have to click on the log and there's an AI and stuff. You can also argue that it's good, that some of them will subscribe, and the success of the game affects how much money is spent on getting work done on it to make it more successful. I don't need to have those arguments, but recognize that they are there for the having.

There is not much data here, but I have seen the experiment play out once, of an expansion being delayed a year so that other stuff could be worked on instead. I was not impressed with how that went.

Again it's moot; however much jsh is ignoring non-posting online Dominion players, the expansion is coming.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jeebus on 13 August 2017, 06:56:59 PM
You don't have enough information to know what jsh considered there; you just disagree with his conclusion.

It is easy to ignore the people who don't say anything, and thus have a less accurate picture of what fans want; that's straightforward.
I'm pretty confident that jsh considered people who post. As you say, it's easy to do just that. At the very least, it's pretty certain that jsh did not consider the people who have stopped playing (or people who will try the client in the future and won't stay).

People who play Dominion but not online may try the online version because of the new expansion, and you can argue that that's bad, that we want to save those people for when you can tell what Duration cards are out and never have to click on the log and there's an AI and stuff. You can also argue that it's good, that some of them will subscribe, and the success of the game affects how much money is spent on getting work done on it to make it more successful. I don't need to have those arguments, but recognize that they are there for the having.
I definitely don't think it's bad to get more people to try the online version, now or ever. I'm just talking about allotment of resources: The more time you spend on new cards (and inevitable new bugs), the less time will be spent fixing existing problems.

Again it's moot; however much jsh is ignoring non-posting online Dominion players, the expansion is coming.
Okay.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Ingix on 13 August 2017, 09:48:47 PM
A new set is an especially easy task, as has been demonstrated in the past here. Aside from occasional tricky cards like Inheritance, or cards that require unique interface stuff like Stash, it's all trivial. At the same time the new set is a significant draw for not-new-to-Dominion players.

That's the usual 80/20 rule: The small 20% of 'occasional tricky' cards make up 80% of the required implementation time. Unlike in real life, where you can ignore a card like Inheritance, in a digitized version you have to include the full ramifications: That now a card can have changed and additional properties while in your possession. That the only card affected is the Estate doesn't make the programming any easier, because there is no special electronic card board only for Estates, the change must be made for *all* cards.

The same goes for any number of changes that happened over time: Alchemy/Empires introduced a new type of money, which makes cost comparison cards potentially problematic. Knights changed what supply piles could be made off, etc. The real problem aren't cards that does something new in isolation. The big problems are always cards that make something new that interacts with many card effects in a new way that may not have been anticipated when programming those cards.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Donald X. on 13 August 2017, 11:10:28 PM
A new set is an especially easy task, as has been demonstrated in the past here. Aside from occasional tricky cards like Inheritance, or cards that require unique interface stuff like Stash, it's all trivial. At the same time the new set is a significant draw for not-new-to-Dominion players.

That's the usual 80/20 rule: The small 20% of 'occasional tricky' cards make up 80% of the required implementation time. Unlike in real life, where you can ignore a card like Inheritance, in a digitized version you have to include the full ramifications: That now a card can have changed and additional properties while in your possession. That the only card affected is the Estate doesn't make the programming any easier, because there is no special electronic card board only for Estates, the change must be made for *all* cards.

The same goes for any number of changes that happened over time: Alchemy/Empires introduced a new type of money, which makes cost comparison cards potentially problematic. Knights changed what supply piles could be made off, etc. The real problem aren't cards that does something new in isolation. The big problems are always cards that make something new that interacts with many card effects in a new way that may not have been anticipated when programming those cards.
I'm not sure what your thesis statement is, if you just want to talk about programming or if you disagree with me strongly on some point.

The existing cards did not take Stef & Co. long to program, not counting the ones that still aren't done. I don't know exact numbers but really, that's a thing that happened and there's real data there and it did not take long. If past performance is indicative of future performance, the new set will not take long.

I do not think 20% of the cards take 80% of the time, and those numbers look suspicious since they add up to 100 but not in a meaningful way. It's more like 5% of the cards take, I dunno, 60% of the time? I wasn't paying that much attention to those numbers when I was programming cards a decade ago.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Ingix on 14 August 2017, 12:15:32 PM
See this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) for the origin of the 80/20 "rule", and of course it is a generalization that does not always work with those number.

My main point is: It is much easier (though still a very complicated task) to program a complex rule system (as Dominion is), when you already know all the parts, then to start with a subset and then get 'surprised' by new effects when a new expansion comes around.

'Already knowing all the parts' is what happened initially, though I'm not sure if Empires was known to the Developers then. Now comes the 'surprises' part, where you may (or not) have introduced a mechanic that invalidates some assumptions made when writing the existing code base (like new money or non-uniform piles in previous expansions).

Depending on how those assumptions manifest themselves in the code, it may be very easy or really complicated to make the changes. If that new concept was known at initial design time, it may not have been so complicated to include it. But with an existing code base, design changes are hard.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Donald X. on 14 August 2017, 05:10:52 PM
See this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle) for the origin of the 80/20 "rule", and of course it is a generalization that does not always work with those number.
I see, interesting. Do you know this one? I measure something - let's say how tall a mountain is. I use some units I pick - whatever units. I report the number. What's the first digit? 30% of the time, it's 1 (and it's 9 only 5% of the time).

My main point is: It is much easier (though still a very complicated task) to program a complex rule system (as Dominion is), when you already know all the parts, then to start with a subset and then get 'surprised' by new effects when a new expansion comes around.
That's totally true, but I have evidence there too.

I programmed a crude home version of Dominion back when (I stopped updating it when Doug Z. provided isotropic, which was way better). I did not know what all the cards would be ahead of time. Sometimes there were things I had not expected, that required changing stuff (like Fortress) or a novel interface (like Black Market).

A typical expansion nevertheless took a weekend to program, including time spent playtesting. Maybe there would be a bug we didn't notice for a week, but you know.

Doug Z. didn't know what was coming up either, and did not have such a crude program, and he was fast too.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jeebus on 15 August 2017, 05:45:53 PM
I have a different view on the triviality of programming new cards. To me there are quite a few existing ones that are not yet fully implemented. As an example, when you can't see the contents of a split pile, I wouldn't call that card pile implemented. The same goes for tokens that are not shown. Then you can start getting into the card bugs, which show that they were not properly implemented.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Jacob Marley on 15 August 2017, 09:49:20 PM
I have a different view on the triviality of programming new cards. To me there are quite a few existing ones that are not yet fully implemented. As an example, when you can't see the contents of a split pile, I wouldn't call that card pile implemented. The same goes for tokens that are not shown. Then you can start getting into the card bugs, which show that they were not properly implemented.

Regarding Split piles and tokens, I think you are confusing interface issues with card issues.  To me, a card is fully implemented if it is programmed in and basically works almost all of the time.  I cannot think of any situations in my play where I encountered a card bug, so to me, all cards (except Stash) are basically fully implemented.  The interface problems remain, but that is because we are looking for an improved interface, not because the cards are not programmed correctly.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jeebus on 15 August 2017, 11:23:44 PM
Regarding Split piles and tokens, I think you are confusing interface issues with card issues.  To me, a card is fully implemented if it is programmed in and basically works almost all of the time.  I cannot think of any situations in my play where I encountered a card bug, so to me, all cards (except Stash) are basically fully implemented.  The interface problems remain, but that is because we are looking for an improved interface, not because the cards are not programmed correctly.
Let's say Nocturne has a new kind of card that can be placed sideways or not, giving you different effects, and another card performs differently depending on the number of sideways cards. If this is implemented such that the interface still shows no cards sideways, would you say that the cards are fully implemented? What about cards that just show the name of the card, no card text, cost, type or image? Are those fully implemented?

I mean, the interface could just tell you which cards you draw and which gets played and bought/gained, and you could look up all the cards elsewhere and track on paper how many are left in supply etc., but I wouldn't call that fully implemented Dominion.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Jacob Marley on 15 August 2017, 11:44:11 PM
Regarding Split piles and tokens, I think you are confusing interface issues with card issues.  To me, a card is fully implemented if it is programmed in and basically works almost all of the time.  I cannot think of any situations in my play where I encountered a card bug, so to me, all cards (except Stash) are basically fully implemented.  The interface problems remain, but that is because we are looking for an improved interface, not because the cards are not programmed correctly.
Let's say Nocturne has a new kind of card that can be placed sideways or not, giving you different effects, and another card performs differently depending on the number of sideways cards. If this is implemented such that the interface still shows no cards sideways, would you say that the cards are fully implemented?

Ok, first the sideways card idea is a manufactured example that is not worth considering for the purposes of what I'm trying to say.  Unless we see this in the set, it doesn's need to be discussed.

Quote
What about cards that just show the name of the card, no card text, cost, type or image? Are those fully implemented?

So, according to you, Isotropic was not fully implemented?  Since what you describe is basically Isotropic except that you could click to get more information.

Quote
I mean, the interface could just tell you which cards you draw and which gets played and bought/gained, and you could look up all the cards elsewhere and track on paper how many are left in supply etc., but I wouldn't call that fully implemented Dominion.

But you are not describing what actually exists on ShuffleIt, rather some theoretical implementation that no one would actually release for pay.

Mechanically, the cards are implemented in the sense that when you play them, the code correctly applies the effects and updates the game state in memory.  The main problem is that the interface doesn't do a good job of showing the results.  That is an interface issue, not an implementation issue.

So, my point is that as long as the system correctly records the effects of the cards played, they are fully implemented AS CARDS.  If it is hard to look at the screen and figure out what is going on, the problem in an interface problem.  I think the point is that doing the mechanical implementation is easy.  The hard part is the visual aspect, and that would be true regardless of whether the new cards are programmed or not.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Donald X. on 16 August 2017, 12:29:12 AM
I have a different view on the triviality of programming new cards. To me there are quite a few existing ones that are not yet fully implemented. As an example, when you can't see the contents of a split pile, I wouldn't call that card pile implemented. The same goes for tokens that are not shown. Then you can start getting into the card bugs, which show that they were not properly implemented.
For me, there's no program until you can play against reasonable bots. By this standard, currently nothing is implemented.

It turns out that's not relevant to this discussion. The people who currently aren't happy will not become happy if Nocturne is added; that's not news. The people who like the program will be happy to get Nocturne though. And the amount of programming needed to get them that happiness is not much programming, whether you personally would call those cards "implemented" or not.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jeebus on 16 August 2017, 06:14:52 PM
So, my point is that as long as the system correctly records the effects of the cards played, they are fully implemented AS CARDS.  If it is hard to look at the screen and figure out what is going on, the problem in an interface problem.
That's a completely made up distinction. The fact of the matter is that both the mechanics of the cards and the interface of the cards need to be implemented. To put it another way, Stef is going to add the full card image to all the new cards; he's not keep them blank with just the card name and then focus on undo features until that's complete.

(Btw, Isotropic had the card text when you hovered over the card. Shuffle IT is the same; you right-click to view it. I don't read the card text without right-clicking it. Type and cost was shown in Isotropic without hovering.)
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: AdamH on 16 August 2017, 06:53:31 PM
People have different things they care about for software, I can totally see how DXV would want to mostly play games against bots and how other players wouldn't. I care a lot more about certain animations and displays and other things that would help me keep track of my opponent's turn. Everyone's wants are valid here and the software should do all of those things.

It would have been nice to have them all done by release but that didn't happen, so now the devs have to prioritize them.

Obviously they should prioritize the things I want above everything else. Sure, DXV can have his stuff after all of my stuff is working perfectly.

(in case it is not obvious, I'm not serious about that last part, unless the devs suddenly want to do that I guess)
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Jacob Marley on 16 August 2017, 08:37:45 PM
So, my point is that as long as the system correctly records the effects of the cards played, they are fully implemented AS CARDS.  If it is hard to look at the screen and figure out what is going on, the problem in an interface problem.
That's a completely made up distinction. The fact of the matter is that both the mechanics of the cards and the interface of the cards need to be implemented. To put it another way, Stef is going to add the full card image to all the new cards; he's not keep them blank with just the card name and then focus on undo features until that's complete.

(Btw, Isotropic had the card text when you hovered over the card. Shuffle IT is the same; you right-click to view it. I don't read the card text without right-clicking it. Type and cost was shown in Isotropic without hovering.)

The distinction is:  "Computer correctly updates game state" vs "player can easily understand what is going on."  The point those who know programming are making is that getting to "Computer correctly updates game state" is comparatively easy and quick, so it makes sense to do that, which benefits everyone who can live with the current interface and still enjoy games.  Delaying Nocturne until everyone is satisfied with the interface is a loosing game, since that likely means a long haul on interface then Nocturne vs Nocturne quick then a long haul on the interface. 

Like Donald said, Nocturne will not make the unhappy people happy, but no Nocturne will make the happy people unhappy.  So there is no question that getting Nocturne released on time in necessary, even if it causes a slight delay in interface improvements.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: yahas on 16 August 2017, 08:55:39 PM
Here's a simple back-of-the-envelope comparison to show that it won't take too much time to implement any Nocturne cards that don't have new mechanics that fundamentally change the code base - Inheritance was implemented within 4 months of the Shuffle IT implementation going up.

Even if you assume that Stef spent half his time figuring out the implementation (which he clearly didn't, given the large number of features that were added to the mostly bare implementation from December to April), that's 2 months to implement Inheritance, which is arguably the hardest card in the game to implement from the perspective of programming. I highly doubt that the Nocturne cards without new mechanics will be any harder to implement than Inheritance, and since they'll likely be higher priorities for Stef, he should easily be able to implement all of them in 2 months, even while working on the other features.

Seems like there's no reason why digital dominion should not be caught up with physical dominion.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jeebus on 16 August 2017, 10:37:50 PM
The distinction is:  "Computer correctly updates game state" vs "player can easily understand what is going on."  The point those who know programming are making is that getting to "Computer correctly updates game state" is comparatively easy and quick, so it makes sense to do that, which benefits everyone who can live with the current interface and still enjoy games.  Delaying Nocturne until everyone is satisfied with the interface is a loosing game, since that likely means a long haul on interface then Nocturne vs Nocturne quick then a long haul on the interface.
Not everyone who knows programming is making that point, since that also includes me. Again: Implementing Nocturne includes implementing the interface for Nocturne, so separating them is pretty meaningless. Maybe you're trying to say that fixing the basic missing interface features - like visible tokens, a marked place to click to see cards in play/set-aside, and a record of past game logs (just storing the actual text from the end-screen game log and creating an interface to access those) - is more work than implementing all of Nocturne. If so, I think you're wrong.

Like Donald said, Nocturne will not make the unhappy people happy, but no Nocturne will make the happy people unhappy.  So there is no question that getting Nocturne released on time in necessary, even if it causes a slight delay in interface improvements.
There's a huge disconnect here between what the vocal minority is saying here and reality. Delaying Nocturne and instead fixing basic functionality and bugs will make certain people unhappier, and others happier. The ones who will be happier are mostly a subset of the majority of people not posting here, and the people who try playing and give up and go away without posting, who instead will stay. I don't know how many new users sign up anymore, but there will be more when Nocturne is released.

Another thing that several people forget: Each expansion is less popular than the last. Dominion is a hugely popular game, but most people - by far - who play it don't have the latest expansion and are not planning to get it. This is very different from the vocal minority here.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Jacob Marley on 16 August 2017, 11:07:55 PM
The distinction is:  "Computer correctly updates game state" vs "player can easily understand what is going on."  The point those who know programming are making is that getting to "Computer correctly updates game state" is comparatively easy and quick, so it makes sense to do that, which benefits everyone who can live with the current interface and still enjoy games.  Delaying Nocturne until everyone is satisfied with the interface is a loosing game, since that likely means a long haul on interface then Nocturne vs Nocturne quick then a long haul on the interface.
Not everyone who knows programming is making that point, since that also includes me. Again: Implementing Nocturne includes implementing the interface for Nocturne, so separating them is pretty meaningless. Maybe you're trying to say that fixing the basic missing interface features - like visible tokens, a marked place to click to see cards in play/set-aside, and a record of past game logs (just storing the actual text from the end-screen game log and creating an interface to access those) - is more work than implementing all of Nocturne. If so, I think you're wrong.

Like Donald said, Nocturne will not make the unhappy people happy, but no Nocturne will make the happy people unhappy.  So there is no question that getting Nocturne released on time in necessary, even if it causes a slight delay in interface improvements.
There's a huge disconnect here between what the vocal minority is saying here and reality. Delaying Nocturne and instead fixing basic functionality and bugs will make certain people unhappier, and others happier. The ones who will be happier are mostly a subset of the majority of people not posting here, and the people who try playing and give up and go away without posting, who instead will stay. I don't know how many new users sign up anymore, but there will be more when Nocturne is released.

Another thing that several people forget: Each expansion is less popular than the last. Dominion is a hugely popular game, but most people - by far - who play it don't have the latest expansion and is not planning to get it. This is very different from the vocal minority here.

Ok, so your right that the opinions of the vocal minority and those of the total population using ShuffleIt are not the same.  However, there is also a distinction between the playing population and the paying population.  I have no evidence for this, and would not presume to speak for anybody but myself, but Id' guess that the paying population would have a significant percentage who will want the new cards asap, and will be unhappy if they are not available at release.  Keeping the paying population happy seems like a significant priority for Stef, which again argues for Nocturne being a priority.  In any case, this argument is really academic, since whatever Stef (or the forum community) thinks is the highest priority, Stef is contractually OBLIGATED to have Nocturne online at the release date.  We can argue back and forth what we think Stef should be doing with is time until the heat death of the universe, but that doesn't change what he MUST do to comply with his contract.
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: werothegreat on 17 August 2017, 08:18:54 PM
Hey, there's a new expansion coming out!  Who's excited?
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: ThetaSigma12 on 19 August 2017, 03:07:30 PM
Hey, there's a new expansion coming out!  Who's excited?
I am! I am!

Soooo glad Nocturne comes out ASAP so I can play with it as soon as the cards come out. Need to get a Gold subscription though...
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: meathead40 on 22 August 2017, 05:52:18 PM
I'm excited for the new expansion!  WooT!
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Matt Arnold on 06 September 2017, 06:06:25 PM
Yes we will certainly have Nocturne online, ASAP.

Currently working on "disconnect issues", I will start implementing Nocturne next week.
I'm so excited that almost every day, I check this thread for updates. It has been a month since you posted this; no pressure, but I'm so curious about how the process works. How long does it typically take to implement a 500-card expansion?

I have been implementing web-based deck-building games for years as a hobby; I have also tended to poke around in Androminion on Android from time to time. So I am mostly asking because I keep wondering if you use a functional programming style, where "+1 Action" or "+1 Card" and so forth are extremely flexible "composable" functions which you assemble into new cards. And is the state tracked by something like Redis?

Not to get completely off topic. The point is, I know how difficult it is, because I have created bad architectures and started over with a new architecture more times than I can count. So here you are with a 500-card expansion, and you can say "I'll get to it next week, NBD." So I'm a fan of your work. Again, no pressure, and THANK YOU!
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: Jacob Marley on 06 September 2017, 07:00:18 PM
Remember, 500 card expansion means 500 rectangular pieces of cardshock in the box, not 500 unique things to program.  there are 33 new kingdom cards, boons, hexes and other cards given by kingdom cards, so maybe 40 or so things to program (just my estimate).
Title: Re: Dominion: Nocturne
Post by: jsh on 06 September 2017, 07:05:28 PM
Yes we will certainly have Nocturne online, ASAP.

Currently working on "disconnect issues", I will start implementing Nocturne next week.
I'm so excited that almost every day, I check this thread for updates. It has been a month since you posted this; no pressure, but I'm so curious about how the process works. How long does it typically take to implement a 500-card expansion?

I have been implementing web-based deck-building games for years as a hobby; I have also tended to poke around in Androminion on Android from time to time. So I am mostly asking because I keep wondering if you use a functional programming style, where "+1 Action" or "+1 Card" and so forth are extremely flexible "composable" functions which you assemble into new cards. And is the state tracked by something like Redis?

Not to get completely off topic. The point is, I know how difficult it is, because I have created bad architectures and started over with a new architecture more times than I can count. So here you are with a 500-card expansion, and you can say "I'll get to it next week, NBD." So I'm a fan of your work. Again, no pressure, and THANK YOU!

I'm not sure if Stef is reading the forums much right now, but I can assure you he's been hard at work on Nocturne. He's even been avoiding our playtesting chat! :)