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Dominion => Feature Requests => Topic started by: kaliopa on 07 August 2017, 09:06:21 PM

Title: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: kaliopa on 07 August 2017, 09:06:21 PM
Hi,

I don't like Undo option very much. When playing Dominion in real life with cards it never happened someone asked to go back some step. Everybody are just aware that they should play carefully and not make hasty moves. I understand that sometimes misclick happens because it happens to me as well, but in general people just don't pay attention. Anyway, that is my opinion and I don't ask for Undo nor I ever did, but also don't want to grant it and when I don't people get mad and become rude. I don't want to explain to everybody at the beginning of the game that I'm not going to grant them Undo, so it would be nice to have an option for every player to click on a button that would disable Undo request for the game. In one of the announcements even not granting Undos was characterized as "unfriendly". I don't think it was necessary to label somebody's opinion like this.

Best regards,

Jelena
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: dane on 08 August 2017, 10:02:47 AM
I don't like Undo option very much. When playing Dominion in real life with cards it never happened someone asked to go back some step. Everybody are just aware that they should play carefully and not make hasty moves.
My experience is completely the opposite.  In real life we attempt to play briskly and accept that from time to time someone will back out a move that hasn't caused any information to be revealed.  We prefer that to having slower games in which no one makes any mistakes because they spend an eternity planning each move.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: WhiteRabbit1981 on 08 August 2017, 09:26:20 PM
Just dont accept undos. Some players (me) will blacklist you for it, but thats not bad as you anyhow dont want to play with ppl who use the undo option alot.

Just my two cents: In real life, everyone knows the intended play. For example, if I happily throw my hand consisting of a bank and four coppers on the table an scream "That province is MINE!!!", noone will ever try to lecture me that I only have a buying power of 5.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Cave-O-Sapien on 08 August 2017, 09:53:58 PM
Just dont accept undos. Some players (me) will blacklist you for it, but thats not bad as you anyhow dont want to play with ppl who use the undo option alot.

Just my two cents: In real life, everyone knows the intended play. For example, if I happily throw my hand consisting of a bank and four coppers on the table an scream "That province is MINE!!!", noone will ever try to lecture me that I only have a buying power of 5.

"I'm sorry, the Bank hit the table first. Rules are rules."
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Emeric on 16 August 2017, 09:04:55 PM
Just dont accept undos. Some players (me) will blacklist you for it, but thats not bad as you anyhow dont want to play with ppl who use the undo option alot.

Just my two cents: In real life, everyone knows the intended play. For example, if I happily throw my hand consisting of a bank and four coppers on the table an scream "That province is MINE!!!", noone will ever try to lecture me that I only have a buying power of 5.

Why do you show 4 coppers and not only 3 ?
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Beyond Awesome on 17 August 2017, 12:08:23 AM
Hi,

I don't like Undo option very much. When playing Dominion in real life with cards it never happened someone asked to go back some step. Everybody are just aware that they should play carefully and not make hasty moves. I understand that sometimes misclick happens because it happens to me as well, but in general people just don't pay attention. Anyway, that is my opinion and I don't ask for Undo nor I ever did, but also don't want to grant it and when I don't people get mad and become rude. I don't want to explain to everybody at the beginning of the game that I'm not going to grant them Undo, so it would be nice to have an option for every player to click on a button that would disable Undo request for the game. In one of the announcements even not granting Undos was characterized as "unfriendly". I don't think it was necessary to label somebody's opinion like this.

Best regards,

Jelena

Dear Jelena,

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you in a couple of instances, and I will tell you what they are. 1st, if I play Crown, I sometimes do so forgetting to end my action phase. I feel this is a very easy mistake, and I assure you the mistake is not made because I am playing too fast. The 2nd reason is Enchantress. I actually had this come up. I read the log, saw my opponent played Enchantress and went ahead and played a terminal card. It ends up that the Enchantress they played was in response to my Enchantress. I misread the log. I did not play fast. In that instance, my opponent refused me the undo. I personally felt that was very, very, very unsportsmanshiplike because it was obvious what happened.

Yes, mistakes happen because people play too fast, but there are legit mistakes as well, and I think outright refusing undos in the two circumstances I mentioned above are rude. But, that's how I feel.

Also, for the record, irl, you would never tell someone they couldn't play Crown because they failed to announce the end of their action phase, and irl you can see if Enchantress is in play.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Jacob Marley on 17 August 2017, 06:38:34 PM
My most frequent mistake is that I will buy a debt card without having played my treasures first then cannot pay off the debt.  This is because I play with auto buy on, which automatically plays the treasures I need to buy the card I click.  In my mind, I need all my treasures to pay debt after I click the debt card I want to buy, forgetting the that computer cannot read my mind, and there are legitimate reasons to have unpaid debt so it doesn't play my treasures.  In a FTF game, this would not happen.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Ingix on 18 August 2017, 01:52:42 PM
It's unfortunate that the legetimate reasons are AFAIK mostly tied to Possession and probably a few cases of Haunted Woods. That means for the vast majority of cases where paying off the debt now makes absolute sense the game can't do it.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: markus on 18 August 2017, 04:33:56 PM
If I could choose the default for autobuy, I'd play all (basic) treasures when you click on a debt card and when you have more than 1 buy.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Jacob Marley on 18 August 2017, 05:57:44 PM
Overpay is another area where there could be misclicks with autobuy.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: markus on 18 August 2017, 06:01:55 PM
Yes, add that to the list of how I would change autobuy. (Kind of wrong topic but whatever  ;) )
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: dextrapucnh on 28 August 2017, 08:31:29 AM
To me this is a big problem.
If there is a misclick (can't happen in real life) undo should be an option.
If, otherwise, like it happens often, an user has a second thought, that shouldn't bet allowed.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: irata on 20 September 2017, 01:38:25 AM
Yes!  I would like an option to disable undo.  (or remove it completely.)  I'm tired of people giving me
attitude because I will not grant an undo.  I'm not even sure why the undo was added in the first place. 
No other version of online Dominion has had it or needed it. 

Also equal starting hands and alternating who goes first would be awesome.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Malta on 20 September 2017, 12:17:07 PM
I find it's very easy to misclick and take the wrong card, something that doesn't happen that much in real life. Same with cards from the tavern mat. You wouldn't forget about them nearly as often if you had them in front of you. Online, it's somewhat hidden, so if you play reasonably fast, it's easy to make mistakes in relation to that. So I love the undo, although I recognize some people probably use it too much.
If it isn't too complicated, perhaps the developers could give you the option to participate in no-undo games if you so desire, but they should be clearly marked as such.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: scottshauf on 03 October 2017, 01:39:11 AM
I wish it was simply a rule: If no new information has been revealed, an undo is allowed; otherwise it is not. No asking the other play for permission, and no denying it. I hate it when people ask for an undo after I've already started playing cards (especially if they then get mad when I deny it), and on the other hand it's annoying for people to deny undo requests in easy-mistake kind of situations.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Heraklit on 04 October 2017, 12:29:57 PM
Without words. There should be an option to disable undo.

Heraklit:
not after drawing
Anfrage Rückgängig zu machen abgelehnt.
sty.silver:
man I just topdecked that card
Anfrage Rückgängig zu machen abgelehnt.
sty.silver:
don't make me blacklist you
Anfrage Rückgängig zu machen abgelehnt.
Heraklit:
u can do
sty.silver:
not after drawing is a totally nonsensical policy
sty.silver:
if drawing has no hidden information
sty.silver:
there is no difference between topdecking a card and then drawing it or remodelign sth
sty.silver:
it l iteraly makes zero logical sense
sty.silver:
it's beneath a dominion player man
sty.silver hat die Verbindung verloren.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Cave-O-Sapien on 05 October 2017, 01:26:59 AM
Without words. There should be an option to disable undo.

Heraklit:
not after drawing
Anfrage Rückgängig zu machen abgelehnt.
sty.silver:
man I just topdecked that card
Anfrage Rückgängig zu machen abgelehnt.
sty.silver:
don't make me blacklist you
Anfrage Rückgängig zu machen abgelehnt.
Heraklit:
u can do
sty.silver:
not after drawing is a totally nonsensical policy
sty.silver:
if drawing has no hidden information
sty.silver:
there is no difference between topdecking a card and then drawing it or remodelign sth
sty.silver:
it l iteraly makes zero logical sense
sty.silver:
it's beneath a dominion player man
sty.silver hat die Verbindung verloren.

I'm trying to follow what happened here.

He topdecked a card, then drew it, then requested an Undo?

And you said "no"?

If this is correct, then I grant this Undo 100% of the time.

BTW, this is a perfect example of why I don't think the "no Undo after new information is revealed" is the "Undo Silver Bullet" a lot of people think it is. I think it would be a nightmare to implement correctly; it would require some subjective decisions on what new information means; and for me it excludes about 50% of the cases where I would grant an Undo request in a ranked game.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: vinay on 05 October 2017, 02:51:51 AM
Yep, sorry Heraklit: he's right and you were being a jerk. If he topdecked a card and you were upset that he asked for an undo after he drew that very same card, there's no reason you shouldn't grant an undo. There's no information revealed there.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: yed on 05 October 2017, 07:59:57 AM
Except I am not sure If the topdecking is clear from the log.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Heraklit on 05 October 2017, 11:45:27 PM
 Gopiet ist dem Tisch beigetreten.
Du trittst Spiel #7484246 auf oregon bei.
Heraklit:
hi hf no undo
Gopiet ist dem Tisch beigetreten.
Du trittst Spiel #7484456 auf oregon bei.
Anfrage Rückgängig zu machen abgelehnt.
Gopiet:
..
Gopiet:
stop that
Gopiet:
undo
Heraklit:
i rote that before starting our first game
Anfrage Rückgängig zu machen abgelehnt.
Gopiet:
WHAT ??
Heraklit:
wrote
Heraklit:
hi hf no undo
Gopiet:
little bitch
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: tashley2 on 07 October 2017, 06:03:20 PM
Coming from a chess background (no do-overs in rated chess games) I don't like the undo feature.  I've never asked for one,  and never allow it if asked for after cards are drawn or future cards viewed,  I usually allow it otherwise unless the opponent asks for it excessively.  It's definitely the cause of a lot of strife and I'm sure that players' blacklists are much fuller because of the undo feature. 
In my opinion,  Dominion is the best game invented since Chess,  it's so subtle,  there is some luck involved but skill plays a much bigger role.  I think the undo feature does somewhat of a disservice to the game,  there's kind of a pervasive do-over mentality.
In a rated game,  my objective of course is to win if I can,  not to help my opponent win.
I know that a lot of players don't like the undo feature.  Perhaps a poll should be taken on whether players that play here want the undo feature or not. 
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Rabid on 07 October 2017, 07:17:27 PM
I would much rather allow a few undo's for miss clicks / rules knowledge.
Than for the game to take a very long time because my opponent is being extra careful.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: dane on 07 October 2017, 07:42:34 PM
I would much rather allow a few undo's for miss clicks / rules knowledge.
Than for the game to take a very long time because my opponent is being extra careful.
My feeling precisely.

Unfortunately some misclicks cause information to be revealed, in which case I usually refuse the undo (though in my experience very few players request an undo in such a situation), but I've never refused an undo if no information has been revealed.  Sometimes, however, it can be unclear what the undo refers to - for example if one clicks on 'End Actions' and then requests an undo, it will look to the opponent as though one is asking to undo the previous action - so some improvement to the interface would be desirable when time permits.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Megas_Droungarios on 30 November 2017, 07:34:35 PM
No, Undo needs to be a feature of the online version:  the possibility of misclicking in a computer interface is not part of the game design, at least for those of us who love the game played face-to-face with physical cards.  (With very rare exceptions -- a player who is walloping me and does something really stupid, or an opponent who was a jerk and denied an innocuous undo request of mine early game -- I always grant undo requests for actions that didn't reveal information that would otherwise be unknown to the player.)
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: bananny on 15 December 2017, 05:01:09 AM
Yes!  I would like an option to disable undo.  (or remove it completely.)  I'm tired of people giving me
attitude because I will not grant an undo.  I'm not even sure why the undo was added in the first place. 
No other version of online Dominion has had it or needed it.

I like undo for the occasional misclick.  But the rare times I ever dare play against real people and not bots, I allow one undo per game.  More than that, or if I'm playing a slow player, I deny them and then get hassled about it.  Same goes if I misclick when playing a live person.  I might ask for one, beyond that, it's my problem and I deal with it by working with what I have in play and not being rude to my opponent.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: katie_mi on 08 January 2018, 12:06:40 AM

I just played with a player who told me that he never asks for undos und won't grant them. I would have liked to know that at the beginning and have preferred to be matched with a different player instead.

In the Goko or MF implementation there was an option if you wanted to play with or without vp displayed and it was part of the matching feature.

Maybe we could simply add a similar option here, so the matching will only match players who have the same setting for the undo marker. The undo switch doesn't have to be implemented in the game but only in the matching feature. It's simply a signal that the player will or will not grant undos. It will be a relief for all not having to discuss with another player who thinks differently about the undo than yourself and you don't have to blacklist the player after! the game.

Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: irata on 01 February 2018, 01:48:52 AM
Vinay you are 100% wrong.  Undo is an optional feature and denying it does not make the poster a "jerk"  A simple option to not allow undos on a game would be really appreciated.   Are there any plans to add this feature?
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Ingix on 01 February 2018, 09:37:18 AM
I can understand that a player may not want to grant an undo on principal reasons, and that players may want to be matched with other players that have a similar attitude towards undo (never/sometimes/almost always).

What I don't understand is why players want a feature built in ("A simple option to not allow undos on a game"), that they can totally enforce themselves. If you want to do that, than simply deny undo requests, maybe with a comment the first time.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: blamelewis on 02 February 2018, 01:53:04 AM
Ingix - it's because it *feels* rude to deny undos manually - and often provokes players to be abusive in response, no matter how much we hold the principle that undos are optional. Undos on/off as a matching criteria would avoid this social difficulty - as it established the attitude towards undos before a player commits to game.

Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: Stef on 02 February 2018, 02:05:23 PM
Ingix - it's because it *feels* rude to deny undos manually - and often provokes players to be abusive in response, no matter how much we hold the principle that undos are optional. Undos on/off as a matching criteria would avoid this social difficulty - as it established the attitude towards undos before a player commits to game.

I intend to build this feature, but I am also afraid you will be very disappointed by the results.
I have a feeling that selecting "I only want to be matched with people that never allow undos" will turn out to be annoyingly close to "I like to just sit & wait here while not getting matched". The people that at least want to allow some undo's are an overwhelming majority.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: blamelewis on 02 February 2018, 02:25:33 PM
It's a fair point Stef...

My preferred implementation of Undo would be something like I described here...

http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2709.msg12109#msg12109 (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2709.msg12109#msg12109)

Cheers
Tim
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: mark1878 on 02 February 2018, 11:32:34 PM
Yes!  I would like an option to disable undo.  (or remove it completely.)  I'm tired of people giving me
attitude because I will not grant an undo.  I'm not even sure why the undo was added in the first place. 
No other version of online Dominion has had it or needed it.

I like undo for the occasional misclick.  But the rare times I ever dare play against real people and not bots, I allow one undo per game.  More than that, or if I'm playing a slow player, I deny them and then get hassled about it.  Same goes if I misclick when playing a live person.  I might ask for one, beyond that, it's my problem and I deal with it by working with what I have in play and not being rude to my opponent.

I've  just started playing with the night cards.
So I get to a state where I have 9 treasures and a bat - I want to play all but one copper.  In face to face I would put the copper in one hand and put the rest down. I can't do that so I click on 8 of them and then the autoplay treasure button we have been trained to use gets clicked on. So what happens in this situation? It would NOT happen in face to face. (In this case my oppenent did not sdo anything just let the game hang and so I write this waiting for hime to time out so I can make him resign.

This undo is not helping

In my case the soluition would to be remove the autoplay treasures button or allow the night before buying.

I also today move my mouse to buy a province and it clicked on a supply card as I moved it. Again this would not happen in real life, but the opponent rejected undo -

I would note that I belong to several playing groups and they all allow you to do a quick retraction if the state of the game is not changed.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: tashley2 on 04 February 2018, 06:33:04 PM
Ingix - it's because it *feels* rude to deny undos manually - and often provokes players to be abusive in response, no matter how much we hold the principle that undos are optional. Undos on/off as a matching criteria would avoid this social difficulty - as it established the attitude towards undos before a player commits to game.

I intend to build this feature, but I am also afraid you will be very disappointed by the results.
I have a feeling that selecting "I only want to be matched with people that never allow undos" will turn out to be annoyingly close to "I like to just sit & wait here while not getting matched". The people that at least want to allow some undo's are an overwhelming majority.

Look forward to this being implemented.  I believe at least a significant minority of players will choose the 'undo off' option so that it won't be too hard to find opponents.  It could result in 2 sets of players (those who want the undo feature & those who don't) that rarely or never play each other,  so a player with a rating of 50 in one group might be significantly different in strength from a 50-rated player in the other group.  Since some players who like the undo feature often use it to get around the rule that you're not supposed to look ahead in the deck (see rules to the base game),  a player with a rating of 50 in the no-undo group will likely be stronger than than a 50 rated player in the pro-undo group.  Speculation, i admit,  but it could have implications in tournaments if people are paired / classified based on their ratings.
The undo feature is kind of like a demagogue politician,  it divides the community.
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: YooperJake on 01 March 2018, 07:29:36 PM
I wish it was simply a rule: If no new information has been revealed, an undo is allowed; otherwise it is not. No asking the other play for permission, and no denying it. I hate it when people ask for an undo after I've already started playing cards (especially if they then get mad when I deny it), and on the other hand it's annoying for people to deny undo requests in easy-mistake kind of situations.

I like this - I see it as an option, "auto-undo".  It would be set to True for me.  Especially on your own turn, when allowing an undo, for all intents and purposes has not given you an advantage.  When such a request is denied, that is what provokes my ire (and blacklist).  I request an undo less than once per game (easily).  I seek to recreate the FtF game environment in my online games.

That said, I would have no problem with an option for users to create games where "allow undo" is set to False.

Cheers,
Jake
Title: Re: Disable Undo for the game
Post by: YooperJake on 01 March 2018, 07:44:08 PM
Ingix - it's because it *feels* rude to deny undos manually - and often provokes players to be abusive in response, no matter how much we hold the principle that undos are optional. Undos on/off as a matching criteria would avoid this social difficulty - as it established the attitude towards undos before a player commits to game.

I intend to build this feature, but I am also afraid you will be very disappointed by the results.
I have a feeling that selecting "I only want to be matched with people that never allow undos" will turn out to be annoyingly close to "I like to just sit & wait here while not getting matched". The people that at least want to allow some undo's are an overwhelming majority.

I agree wholeheartedly.  To date, I have played over 3,151 games of Dominion on this site.  In all those games, I feel confident stating that I have only had a problem with someone denying a reasonable undo request a handful of times.  Perhaps due, in part, to my low rate of undo requests, but moreover that the vast majority of players grant reasonable undo requests.

We've all experienced players who try to abuse the undo button, and those rare situations are, IMHO, what the deny button is for (and the blacklist).

Thanks for the game and your continuting efforts to make improvements.  The latest one I noticed was the feature making it easier to see what you are topdecking with Harbinger - well done!

Cheers,
Jake