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Dominion => General Discussion => Topic started by: dextrapucnh on 05 October 2018, 02:58:57 AM

Title: Dominion = Slot machine
Post by: dextrapucnh on 05 October 2018, 02:58:57 AM
Some months ago I quitted dominion, but some days ago I tried coming back for a few games.
I felt frustrated again.

I am a thoughtful person, so I always give a second chance.
Alas, this happened again.

I find that the game is pretty appealing for some reasons.
I find combos very interesting, I plaied MTG mostly because of the combos I could create.
Dominion is very similar, plus changing the sets everytime leads everytime to a new match, completely different comparted to the last one.
Most dynamics are very interesting.

Too bad it's overly flawed.
I plaied MTG for years and I felt very rarely that I was just lucky/unlucky at drawing.

What I feel is that you get a lot of new expansions (I didn't have nocturne and renaissance last time I plaied) but no effort is made to fix the game.

The very fact that some player may win only because they had a turn more than you is just alone speaking for it. I can't really find a reason why this has never been fixed.
One easy fix could be: when someone buys the end card, all cards are available for buy endlessy for the remaining turn. So if I buy the last province at my turn 18 and the opponent is at turn 17, he still is given a chance to buy a province.

As long as things stay they way they are, starting is always an advantage.

Then again it happens a lot of times that you start 2/5 or 3/4 and there aren't cards for you.
Like, your opponent goes first with 2 / 5 and he buys a 2 and a 5.
If you have 3/4 and there are no 4s, the game is already over. You can buy 2 3s but then you have 2 3s vs a 2 and a 5, which are considerably better.

I surely may not be very good at this game, yeah why not, but I find also very significative the fact that I am able to play at my best, beat easily a 52 ranked player, then lose with a 36 ranked one. Why? Because luck it's preminent in this game.

I am sorry, but this stays. I gave it a second shot and I felt even way worse than before.

The effort Stef makes in making an appealng UI is stunning.
The wish to try the new expansions is always temptating.

But it's like tobacco to me. I know it will harm me and I still come playing.
Then I feel greatly frustrated, and I quit and make vows not returning.

This time I hope that I'll be faithful to my vow, or I'll feel bad again.
Yes, dominion makes me feel sick for how much luck is a part of the game.
And sometimes I even feel angry at players who don't complain about this.
Playing a game should make you feel good, should remove stress.
Instead, even if in life I am a very calm person, I found myself banging my fist on my desk for how blatantly lucky my opponent was.

It happened to me too many times this also: 2 provinces left, I'm leading, my opponent has a way worse deck than I have, he risks buying the second-last province, and I stumble upon all the combinations that prevent me from buying the last one, then he succeeds buying it or emptying the third row.
This happens very often. It's gambling, not strategy.

If I felt that this game could not be fixed, knowing I am writing negatively, I would never do that.
But since I believe strongly that this game may be fixed in future, I expressed my thoughts.

I really believe they should stop making new expansions and FIX the game before moving on.
Having many players playing doesn't mean the game is good.
It means it is addictive. And good is not addictive.

I'll explain this one, which will explain the title of the topic too.

If you feel that you lost only because you were a lot unlucky, you'll start a new game.
Exactly like you do at slot machines. Slot machines are always full of people playing, because it's studied, they are BUILT that way, so that you always think "wow! I nearly won! Gotta play again right now!"
And Dominion, IMHO, is studied this way, because a lot, really, a lot of pleyers complained about how luck plays a vital role in this game and this has never tried to be fixed in the whole game's history. So why that? MTG mechanics have been revised a lot of times. Dominion's haven't. I believe they don't because the luck factor is purposedly put into the game to trick the players that next time luck will change and they will have the upper hand and win.

Dominion is addictive. But it's not a good strategy game.

I already know that some people will simply label me as a sore loser, but I'll myself know it not to be true, because I feel bad even when I beat a 50+ ranked player only because he clearly had worse cards. (Like today, we both bought masquerades, and I got only good cards from him, while he got only coppers and estates from me).

I however thank Stef for the effort of making one of the best UIs I have ever seen.

Farewell guys.
Title: Re: Dominion = Slot machine
Post by: dextrapucnh on 05 October 2018, 03:03:42 AM
I would ask please ban my account DEXTRAPUNCH as there aren't ways to delete an account. (You could improve the interface giving this option to the players, everywhere you are are allowed to cancel your account but here...)
I really don't want to play any more, and since I am lazy I doubt I'd make a new account.
So please ban me / delete my account, so that I can't play anymore.
Title: Re: Dominion = Slot machine
Post by: Geronimoo on 05 October 2018, 09:46:05 AM
Having luck in a game is not a bad thing. If the less skilled player always loses there's a chance he might just quit the game because of that. Luck also adds to the excitement of a game. Making unlikely come-backs and top decking the perfect card are fun and exciting. In the long run the best players will still be on top of the leaderboard. I'd say Dominion is a "medium luck-high skill" game. Chess is "no luck-high skill" and poker is "high luck-high skill". In Chess you only need 1 game to determine who is the better player. In Dominion I would estimate 10 games and poker 10,000 hands.
Title: Re: Dominion = Slot machine
Post by: Briawna on 05 November 2018, 02:25:03 AM
Not gonna lie, this attitude drives me bonkers. I actually think the thing ruining the game is people who whine about luck.  Of course there’s some luck involved, like previous commenter stated, it’s not chess.
But I don’t understand people who come to play a game with a random draw and then flip out if they feel they get one unlucky draw or one unlucky game. Then Challenge your opponent to a rematch!! Or a best of three!!

I know that I, personally, have had many times where I’ve soundly beaten someone with a very deliberate strategy, using cards I know well, and because my opponent didn’t “get” the strategy they say “lucker lucker!!” The whole game and ruin the atmosphere.

I’ve also lost at times because I got a series of unlucky draws. I’ve also GAMBLED on a risky move and won!! Knowing when to take the gamble can actually be part of the strategy and part of the fun.

There are world championships of poker, which involves a lot more chance than dominion, and there are a lot of very skilled players.

The element of chance does not negate the effects of skill.

Alas, if you get THIS worked up over the element of chance, yeah, you probably shouldn’t play the game. But why get so up in arms? There is literally nothing at stake here. Have a good time, play a game. If you lose and you think it’s unfair, well, there’s only two kinds of fair I know about: fair weather and the kind where you buy cotton candy.

Title: Re: Dominion = Slot machine
Post by: ospond on 05 November 2018, 06:42:25 AM
I plaied MTG for years and I felt very rarely that I was just lucky/unlucky at drawing.

Aside from the rest of your post, this comparison with MTG made the least amount of sense. MTG is extremely luck-based. Tons of games are won and lost based on not drawing the right lands / being mana-screwed. The mulligan mechanism is extremely limited by design, and just having to mulligan at all is a huge disadvantage.

I get disliking luck in a game, but if you like MTG, then I don't see how you can criticize Dominion. Your entire post reads like "I am upset that I lost some games due to luck".
Title: Re: Dominion = Slot machine
Post by: twasa on 06 November 2018, 07:02:03 PM
I think we may tend to underestimate luck in games and overestimate skill. Chess is not a game that is decided in one game either for instance, the 2018 world championship will be played over 12 games. While we may agree that chess has less luck, if it takes 12 games to decide a true winner, then a single game of Dominion pales in comparison. All card games that involve a shuffle, will have luck. Dominion has some ways to mitigate that. Otherwise we just live with the fact that sometimes we're lucky and our gamble paid off, or give our opponents credit for gambling and getting lucky.
Title: Re: Dominion = Slot machine
Post by: gloures on 07 November 2018, 07:11:21 PM
One thing I can say is that we had a single elimination bracket last year and are having one now that is already in the final match, last year we had some 300 players and this year we had around 250, each match consisting on playing 6 games. Last year the winner was the player generally considered the strongest player in the tournament by the community, and this year the player considered strongest is in the final match that has yet to be played. Sure there is a lot of luck, but there is always little decisions that make a ton of difference.
Title: Re: Dominion = Slot machine
Post by: twasa on 08 November 2018, 04:30:36 PM
I agree gloures, having spectated many of the stronger players many times. I just think that the luck there is in Dominion, doesn't make it equal to playing a slot machine and one can obviously learn from stronger players how to mitigate the element of luck. Maybe the OP should spectate stronger players in tournament matches more.