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Messages - Ingix

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Support / Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« on: 25 July 2017, 03:15:53 pm »
Do you not analyze turns while playing? If not, I'd recommend it, you will play much better. I'm being a little bit sarcastic, because I think you mean something else by "analyze a turn" and I don't quite know what you're getting at.

Here I meant with "analyze a turn" a post-game analysis of what happened. For a player that has never seen this, understanding how playing lot's of Worker's Village and Goons, and having a single Watchtower, can create big amount of vp tokens in a single turn, is probably illuminating about the power of Goons.

All of the information about what my opponent did during their turn (that I'm legally allowed to know) should be available to me in a manner that's easy for me to parse. I should be able to blink during my opponent's turn and not have to spend five minutes and figure out a puzzle about the kingdom in order to know what happened.

And I don't think you need to do that (the puzzling part), if you trust the game to be bug free (which of course it isn't).

Your opponent bought a Province, let's just assume that he had the coins to do so, and not focus on counting his Militia plays and Peddler plays to figure out why playing just a Silver was enough. Neither card mentioned anything about creating coins, for example.

Similarly, trust that the game takes correctly care of counting the available actions/buys, so when your blink is over and he has 3 coins, 2 actions and 3 buys, focus on that information instead of figuring out how he had to play his 3 Squires to get that. If you want to do that later, then that falls into the post-game analysis category.

Support / Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« on: 24 July 2017, 01:27:46 pm »
@Adam: Our fundamental differences seem to be what the log should be good/useful for. To me it should be useful while playing, both when recalling things that are public information and that I should remember, and when I was away and actually didn't see (say: What opponent gained last turn because I have a Smuggler in hand).

I think that the log is not (and should not be) the way to analyze a turn. It would be much better if the ability to load the game could be expanded to allow a game to be seamlessly replayed, with the board state and both player's hands visible at all times, as well as the current actions/buys/coins, etc.

Of course, this ability does not exist (and may never be) and the log is all you have now to do that analysis. Would it be better if it gave choices like Actions/Buys/Silver for Squire? Yes, it would be. Is it necessary when the actual game is in progress? I do not think so.

Again, I do not think that a log line saying "5 coin tokens are converted to coins" would have helped in this case, but you are right it wouldn't have hurt.

Card Bugs / Re: game froze with bishop and inherited fortress
« on: 24 July 2017, 12:30:33 pm »
On that turn 14 there seem to be multiple 'options' to freeze the game. As described by kingdedede, when his opponent has the option to trash a card for the Bishop kingdedede played, all possible actions end in a freeze. If he selects a card to trash, the game will freeze with the red "X" 'selected for trash' marker on the card.

I tried other ways to play that turn 14, to see what happened. If you (as kingdedede) play turn 14 (decision 108) Crown+Bishop, and you choose to trash the Estate twice (it comes back because of it having the text of Fortress), the game freezes on your turn right then. If you choose to trash other cards (not trashing the Estate, or only trashing the Estate once), then you can end your turn. However, the AI opponent always started his turn by playing Bishop itself and trashing an Estate (that is also a Fortress due to Inheritance) and the game will freeze then.

My suspicion is that after the Estate comes back to the hand the first time after being trashed, something is slightly incorrect about it. When it is trashed a second time, something goes wrong.

Feature Requests / Re: See all Kingdom Cards
« on: 21 July 2017, 04:02:04 pm »
There should be a thing to click on to see all of the cards being used in the game - full card images with both art and text. This seems straightforward, like a trivial task.

Do you think this is doable with Travelers/Castles/Knights in the same Kingdom? In this case this would be 23 different cards from 3 Kingdom supply pile alone.

You should also be able to click on an individual pile to see a full version of that card. If that pile is two different cards, or 8 or 10, you should instead see all however many - you click on the pile, instead of showing you 1 card, oops it was Patrician / Emporium so it shows you both. If the pile has a card paired with it that isn't in the pile - the Bane (even though it's a kingdom card also), Madman, Spoils, Prizes, etc. - it should show the main card and also that other card or sets of cards.

Very good suggestion for the links between cards!

Support / Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« on: 21 July 2017, 09:40:48 am »
The log is pretty clear on what happened: Opponent bought a Province (the last one) and ended the game. I'm not even sure if IceHot looked at the log (as I previously wrote, it seems to me that he looked at the 'live action' and was baffled on how 3 coin could buy a Province).  So it is not even clear if your proposal would have helped in this case.

It's another issue of how to treat game mechanics that a player may not be familiar with (like coin tokens). How would you make it clear to a player that has never seen cards using coin tokens what happened here? Maybe tooltips when hovering the mouse over the coin token display? But of course this would annoy player who already know what this is.

I'm not sure what to do, but to be also frank: I don't think an entry in the log would have helped in this case.

Feature Requests / Re: See all Kingdom Cards
« on: 21 July 2017, 08:52:35 am »
The problem is: Not everybody will get his dream solution. We need to find a solution that is doable and has the most "bang for the buck", where the buck is the limited amount of time that can be spent on this feature.

You see your feature as good for many players, I see my feature as better for many new players. Of course we should discuss that and hopefully get a solution that is even better that what we individually proposed. You wrote:

All Kingdom cards, events, and landmarks need to be visible on one screen.

I assume that this means that their text should be visible, as the current screen has their names and (with the exception of the non-supply piles) their pictures visible. My suggestion would show that *at all times*, if you so choose (the proposal was deliberately vague on the options how to invoke that feature, as I wanted to concentrate on the feature first). I see however that this would exclude the non-supply piles in my proposal. I'll have to think some more about this.

We both agree that non-uniform piles, like Castles, Knights, Ruins, etc. need some special handling.

Interface Issues / Re: Scavenger
« on: 20 July 2017, 07:31:41 pm »
Of course a better interface (that shows only one copy of each card, for example) would be preferred. For the moment, one walkaround I use is to first right-click a card I assume to be the one I'm looking for, so I can see what it is.

The problem seems to be that the width of the windows looks fixed, so even though the top card (Estate) is good to see, the margin of each of the many cards gets really small.

I'll look into the log-issue tomorrow.

The log-issue you described is baffling, as in my tries the log does say what card was selected, immediately after the Scavenger action was done:

Turn 5 - Ingix
I plays a Scavenger.
I moves their deck to the discard.
I looks at 2 Scavengers , an Estate and 6 Coppers.
I topdecks a Copper.

The same is true in all languages.

I found your game (5315960) and when I replayed the summoned scavengers, it showed the selected card afterwards (see screenshot). What may have happened is that because the previously listed set of revealed cards was so long, you didn't realize that the last line (showing the topdecked card) is not part of that list.

Support / Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« on: 20 July 2017, 02:05:31 pm »
I'm all for having better interfaces and maybe a little more information in the log wouldn't hurt. But let's not confuse the issue: This game is AFAIK completely simulated server-side. Nobody can cheat in the sense that they play only 7 coin, shout "Watch out, a 3-headed monkey behind you!" and, while their opponent looks away, take a Province.

As jsh demonstrated, it is possible with the current tools to find out exactly what happened. There were coin tokens in the game. From the description, it looks like IceHot was not absent and AFK, otherwise how would he know that opponent still had a card in hand? He simply did not notice that opponent had accumulated coin tokens, it seems.

Again, of course it would be nice if the game log said something like "Player X converts 5 coin tokens into coins" in such a situation. But I take issue with your statement (which you voiced before) that this is a mayor bug.

If you are absent for opponent's turn and want to catch up, you have to look in two places: The log (so you see what he trashed, gained, a.s.o) and the information area for each player where you can clearly see how many coin tokens he has, how much debt, etc.

Card Bugs / Re: Butcher
« on: 20 July 2017, 01:37:38 pm »
1) I just tried a game against a Bot with Butcher. I could indeed keep the earned coin tokens for several turns and then spend them.

2)I looked at your 9 games from the last 4 days (as defined by dominion.lauxnet.com) and none of them included a Butcher. Was it maybe an earlier game or a game under another user name?

I can't reproduce the bug and I need your help identifying the game where it happened.

Feature Requests / Re: See all Kingdom Cards
« on: 20 July 2017, 12:57:28 pm »
If we are talking about an extra screen, then it may not be the big help for a new player who stares down at 8 cards he's never seen before, plus Village and Smithy. Because most people cannot keep 8 new cards in their memory. I really remember my first games of IRL Dominion and that I initially had big problems to remember what all the cards do, even though they were in front of me to read.

Maybe it's possible, in the normal view, to replace the card picture with the card text in the supply piles for some cards, maybe the ones marked as non-familiar. This way the important information for a new player (card text) is immediately and always in front of them. Once they know what Masquerade and Forge do, they can mark them as familiar, and now they see the picture (as it is now). They still have the name to connect them with the text they have learned. The skill to recognize a card upside down from the picture that is necessary in IRL is not needed in online play, so (as a first learning step) it can be replaced with the much more important text.

Of course, I have no idea how hard that is to implement.

Interface Issues / Re: Jack and deck counter
« on: 19 July 2017, 05:05:26 pm »
I've gone through all the cards that I can think of that may have this kind of problem, and in version 1.2.10 only one still has it: Pearl Diver.

All the others, when they show you cards from a deck, will not include them in that deck's card counter.

I think it should be changed for Pearl Diver, to make it consistent with the other cards. But since Pearl Diver is AFAIK the only card that looks at something not coming from the top side of the deck, it may not be easy to implement.

In the end-of-game screen the client lists for each player the effects that generate victory points (victory cards, curses, vp tokens and landmarks). The order seems to be ascending according to the total victory points created by that effect.

The only outlier seem to be the vp tokens, which seem to be always ordered as if their total was "1". See attached picture for an example. It's of course a very minor issue, though.

OTOH, when playing the Making Fun version of Dominion, I often wished that those scenarios where you have to choose an order for some set of cards, and those cards happen to be all the same, could be sped up. Like if you buy a Mandarin with 5 Copper, and you had to put each Copper back to the deck one after another. So it's not like (at least to me) the general idea to get rid of selections that boil down to just one option in a given case is not appreciated.

Another aspect is that the fast speed at which this happens automatically will alert a human opponent. So if I see me opponent play an Archive and the log immediately says that he looked at 3 cards, set 2 aside and took one in hand, I know that he got 3 identical cards. This is not information I'm supposed to have. This is similar to opponent thinking about playing a Reaction when I play an Attack. If the game in that situation does not immediately continue with my Attack, I know that opponent has a Reaction in hand, even if he finally decides not to play it.

Making the automatic execution of "only one choice possible" actions optional would of course be the best option. In the meantime, maybe putting an alert in the 'central information area' (where your Action/Buy/Money accounts are) that some streamlining happened would be possible (like sometimes it directs you to the log for choices to make).

Interface Issues / Re: Jack and deck counter
« on: 14 July 2017, 02:54:20 pm »
This is especially true because it has been established that if you trash an Overgrown Estate with Lookout, you draw the next card from your deck, not counting the cards you are just looking at due to Lookout.

With Jack one could argue that the card is still on top of your deck while you look at it, with Lookout this point of view is impossible.

Interface Issues / Re: Choose cleanup items and resolution order
« on: 14 July 2017, 02:44:49 pm »
This sounds like a bug that was fixed in 1.2.7 some time ago where the game was over but the game client didn't realize that (http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=604.msg7060#msg7060).

When I replay that game now, it ends normally, but that could be true before 1.2.7 as well, as the bug happened only from time to time. I don't *think* it has anything specifically to do with the topic you gave, it just so happens that it is the last thing on the screen when the client freezes.

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