Messages

I came here to report someone. I already blacklisted them, but  feel more is needed. Where do I report?

Alas the trend is that bullies are free to behave the way they want.

dextrapunch, your argument almost boils down to: https://xkcd.com/386/.

It looks like AdamH also assumes english is the only language of games like Dominion. No. It has been translated in other languages online and irl. If there were to be a list of bad words, would that include German, French, Norwegian, Dutch etc, and the 13 official languages in my country? I've been insulted in languages other than English, only realising I've been insulted by using google translate.

However imperfect the reporting mechanism is, it is probably the best one can do against the Martin Gee type of trolls. They are determined to ruin your day and delight at escaping any attempt to prevent them.

Blacklist and move on.

Flawed. Report button, easy, unarguable.
I keep on having this strange feeling that there are people who are quite tolerant toward trolls.
I hope to be wrong.

Another reason why I believe that the blacklist isn't the solution, is that it's abused.

If I start counting the number of times an user said me "Welcome to my blacklist" because, after a very nice and fair game, the user uses an action that draws cards, then asks undo, then I deny because he would have an advantage over me, I will keep counting forever.

I stongly believe that a "report" button that does nothing more than wrapping the chat log and sending it to a moderator, which reads and bans whoever insults or use bad words, would solve everything.

In terms of computing, that doesn't require much coding, and it would do the job perfectly.

I think that the very existence of that button, visible and crystal clear, would discourage a lot of people.

I am however having the vague and unpleasant feeling that cussing, using bad words or insulting is a somewhat trying to be "safeguarded" here, or I fail to understand why people would allow it and oppose having severe measures against who does this.

Having a rule that isn't well-defined is, in practice, the same as not having a rule at all. It seems difficult to define what "good behavior" in the chat would be, but I suppose you could do it. Either way, it's not defined right now. You probably need a dirty word list.

Having a rule that isn't enforced is also pretty much the same as not having the rule at all. It's probably tough to enforce this rule without having the client do it for you (censoring the chat when a dirty word is detected, then sending a report after a certain threshold to the moderators, for example) but it certainly isn't being enforced now.

...and having rules that aren't well-defined and aren't enforced is going to lead to unhappy people and unhelpful discussions about it. I would recommend either defining and enforcing the rule or not having it at all.

Realistically, I think the option to choose is the option of not having the rule because that's much easier and this is the internet, but that's just my opinion.

This is far more reasonable to me than the previous messages.
Still "this is the internet" isn't to me a valid argument, because until "this is the internet" is an argument for behaving unfairly, rudely, or the like, people who enjoy this kind of behaviours will indulge in them.

dextrapunch I find your forum post to be insulting.
Should you be punished?

If I effectively insulted someone or used bad words, yes.
But since this is just a pointless provocation, and I am just stating facts, not.

In my country, also, if you go to the police or somewhere to denounce something, and that something is CLEARLY nothing, you get a fine.
Which could apply in your case.

Ok, that's not his job. But that would be mods' one.
Either mods declare that insulting is allowed, or mods ban all people that do not abide strictly to the rules.
The two cannot exist simultaneously.

I don't have a system or the time to know about every single instance of this. I'm a volunteer. Right now, users can simply blacklist people they don't want to play with. It isn't a perfect system but the system does work. My advice is not to worry about awful people being awful to others when you can put them in your personal blacklist and never see them again.

Well, this actually means you wash your hands of it.
Being paid or not is not a good reason to refuse to bear a responsability.

Or, easier, you are communicating that, yes, users are able to cuss or use bad words, or insult, and they will stay on unbanned, the worst case scenario is they lose the chance to face again that one player.
But if I was to insult someone, not playing against him anymore would be the lesser of my problems. Probably I would blacklist myself that user first, because if I am lead to insult someone, surely I won't like playing again with him.

That said, the villain wins in this scenario. Which I don't like much. Moreover considering people is PAYING ACTUAL MONEY to play this game. And when one pays, one demands.

Please leave jsh alone. He is doing a great job, I'm grateful for whatever he does. He is dealing with plenty of shit already as a mod.

The fact that not everyone violating a rule gets immediately banned or punished in some way does not imply the rules doesn't exist, nor does that make the system invalid. In fact, that is what makes the system work as a whole. There are plenty of examples of countries that tried to enforce every rule on all its citizens. I wouldn't want to live in one.

There is no villain 'winning' in this scenario. People yelling in chat are generally speaking very frustrated individuals with more problems IRL then you are willing to imagine. I don't envy them. Yes there is a line they can cross and then they get banned.

My advice to you, assuming you're one of the nice people that sometimes encounter a frustrated individual, is to try to spend as little time with them as possible. Blacklist & move on works very well for that. Any time you spend on this forum or anywhere else typing up some report is only adding to your own frustration. If they really cross a line you can report and who knows maybe they get banned. But another persons pain or punishment will never make you truly happy. And maybe before you speak about bearing responsibility and people paying actual money you should reevaluate your own situation.

In the end this is the internet and you'll sometimes encounter someone you'd rather not. Speaking from my personal experience, the dominion community is doing way better then the average community out there. Yesterday I played ~30 games against ~20 different opponents without a single incident.

Well I could NOT disagree more.
Your politics is: if someone behaves in a bad way, just let him/her be.
This way that person will always behave in a bad way.
You make examples with countries.
In every country:
- if there is a law and you break it, you are punished
- if you have a bad behaviour, you are reported, and nobody does anything, that means there is NO law preventing you from

Which is exactly my point.
EITHER people is allowed to insult
OR mods should do something.

People unallowed to insult but mods doing nothing, these two events cannot live simultaneously.

People PAY for this game, should be treated fairly.

Ok, that's not his job. But that would be mods' one.
Either mods declare that insulting is allowed, or mods ban all people that do not abide strictly to the rules.
The two cannot exist simultaneously.

I don't have a system or the time to know about every single instance of this. I'm a volunteer. Right now, users can simply blacklist people they don't want to play with. It isn't a perfect system but the system does work. My advice is not to worry about awful people being awful to others when you can put them in your personal blacklist and never see them again.

Well, this actually means you wash your hands of it.
Being paid or not is not a good reason to refuse to bear a responsability.

Or, easier, you are communicating that, yes, users are able to cuss or use bad words, or insult, and they will stay on unbanned, the worst case scenario is they lose the chance to face again that one player.
But if I was to insult someone, not playing against him anymore would be the lesser of my problems. Probably I would blacklist myself that user first, because if I am lead to insult someone, surely I won't like playing again with him.

That said, the villain wins in this scenario. Which I don't like much. Moreover considering people is PAYING ACTUAL MONEY to play this game. And when one pays, one demands.

Ok, that's not his job. But that would be mods' one.
Either mods declare that insulting is allowed, or mods ban all people that do not abide strictly to the rules.
The two cannot exist simultaneously.

I would like also to add that I plaied a lot on fextralife too, before here.
There wasn't any ladder, I lost to players who were clearly committing mistakes, but I humbly always thought that perhaps I saw as mistakes what were smart moves.

Now that I have a ladder I have a score to refere to, to help me undestrand if I am losing to an expert player or not.

However, it seems you have a classic case of selective amnesia.  We as humans tend to fixate on the times that screwed us over and become convinced that the universe is aligned against us.

Nope. Already explained. I lose in other games, I win in other games, and that's pretty Dominion-based.
While...

I've also played thousands of games, I'm usually at around level 58-60 (I've been on the top 20 two or three times). I also feel that luck plays too big of a role when both players more or less know what they're doing

Exactly my thoughts.
It is important to have people rannked in the top 20 expressing something like that.
It's always is easy to blame someone else. More difficult is to admit the game you like has some major bugs.
That alas can't be easily fixed, too.

This has been suggested and discussed many, many times. And the fact is, that this rule change would change a slight first-player advantage into a huge second player advantage. The first player could no longer ever end the game with a win; he would have to always make sure he builds up a big enough lead first, and then end the game; hoping that the second player can't catch up. Whereas the second player can continue to play normal Dominion, and win simply by ending the game while 1 or more points ahead. It would be very unfair to the first player. The object of Dominion is not to get the highest score you can (and then hope that it is higher than your opponent's score). The object is to end the game while you are in the lead.

In Citadels the one closing has 4 points more.
That could be something. The one closing gets a bonus. Then you have however another turn.
This would be less unfair.
OR
The one closing either wins or ties.
The other one, if doesn't get enough points to tie, loses.
If he goes even, or overtakes the opponent, it's a tie. That would be another solution.
This would change mecahnics, that is true, but in my opinion, for the better.
This would make me rethink about my idea to retire from dominion.

-cut-
I doubt that you made your original post in the midst of anger, so I suspect that it's an issue that you thought about for a while.  Which means that your decision to (at least temporarily) leave Dominion will not change . . . at least, for now.

Yes, you got all my points and for this I really thank you a lot.

I don't think I have to add more, but, I would like to see some game mechanics changed and that would surely be something.

And top of all, I really think that the fact that the player starting may have a turn more then their opponent is a completely wrong rule.

The second player should be given their last turn, and if provinces ended, should be replenished. Thus, having plaied the very same number of rounds, you would see which is for real the better player.

[TOO often]

Sorry but this is so biased I can hardly reply. I'll try.

Just think.

I say "We have our opinion, none is correct, they're just opinions. I keep mine, you keep yours, have a nice day".

You say "Your opinion is not correct. Mine is. Mine is the supreme truth."

Perhaps you think Dominion is good as it is. I don't. People who ask/do changes improve the situation, in games and in life. People who think "It's already perfect as it is" are conservative people who will never help progress.

But let's assume you were right for a second, shall we?
I should say the very same things in every single game I suck at.
Say that I suck at Settlers of Catan. Or Carcassonne. I should say "This game sucks" just because I am a sore loser.

Instead, I suck at many games, but they do no frustrate me. I smile and admit that I have to improve.

Of course I would have to improve here too. Who says I wouldn't? But Dominion is very successful in frustrating me.
Dominion often deceives you that you can win having a bold strategy, or a smart one, and then your opponent is lucky and you cannot do anything about it. Just watch him win while you have a far better deck.
I myself felt also the embarassment of beating people ranked 7 8 points more than me only because I was chaining the right cards at the right moment, as if I could chose them from the deck.

And it happens TOO often. That's my point. I play 20 games in a row, I shouldn't even notice if one is lucky in a game. I could notice in 40 games, 50 games. But that isn't the case. I play 20 games and I see lucky plays (either by me or my opponent) TOO often.

Too often when starting with 5/2 I have had NO cards costing 5 or 2.
But I guess I made my point, there's no need to go on.

Just... I frankly fail to understand people who, when talking about mere opinions, think their is undeniable truth.