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Messages - jeebus

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1
Card Bugs / Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« on: 25 March 2020, 07:34:26 PM »
Stef, thanks for your explanation. "These" posts from me before have been mostly about Band of Misfits, Inheritance and Innovation (sometimes with some Landmarks). (Luckily, the Band of Misfits and Inheritance stuff is now moot.) With Innovation specifically, Donald had to make some new rulings because of the questions that came up. I understand that those questions were not asked before I asked them, which I wonder about. It would seem prudent to map that out during/before development, in order to get it right from the start, to whatever extent is possible given the problems you outline. I have never been asked if I would be available, for instance.

When it comes to the topic of this thread, it's a bit different, because the actual underlying rule was ill-defined until January last year. Donald knew how the cards interacted, but the rule was not well defined. Also, as you say, the effect of the missing stuff in the client was marginal, at least until now.

Ultimately, whatever you deem should reasonably be fixed is of course up to you. I just report it (and in this case got a bit frustrated that I was not believed). Of course, it's nice if you or Ingix tell me that it will be fixed at some point or it won't be fixed.

***

Way of the Mouse seems to create more Innovation-like craziness, like gain Death Cart and play Marauder (via Sheepdog/Mouse) before you gain the second Ruins. I don't know how you've handled this or even if it's something you want to include in the client.

2
Card Bugs / Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« on: 25 March 2020, 01:23:10 AM »
That's not how abilities work in Dominion. You can't interweave two abilities that trigger at the same time. For instance, if you gain a Death Cart, both Death Cart and Watchtower (for gaining Death Cart) trigger, but you can't resolve Watchtower inbetween gaining two Ruins - you can't gain a Ruins, topdeck Deathcart, then gain another Ruins. Likewise, with two abilities that say "each other player", you have to resolve one of them completely before resolving the other. This is why my example shows the problem with your view.

With Duplicate and Embassy it's the same: There are only two abilities, Duplicate and Embassy. One has to come first. If Embassy said "each player" (so that you also gained a Silver), you couldn't call Duplicate on the Embassy in the middle of handing out Silvers.

Here's Donald explaining exactly this when it comes to Noble Brigand/Embargo: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4535.msg101911#msg101911

Your view would mean the that if you gain Haunted Castle, I could play Black Cat after you gain a Gold but before I topdeck. That's in the middle of resolving Haunted Castle and obviously wrong. (Black Cat triggers off you gaining Haunted Castle, not you gaining Gold.)

This rule is what we have to explain these interactions, and Donald has confirmed it. I didn't write that it was my personal theory. It's a bit frustrating that you're doubting it. You can go do the research and find out why this rule exists. If you want to propose an alternate rule that achieves the desired results for these interactions, you can formulate it and propose it to Donald.

4
Card Bugs / Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« on: 24 March 2020, 11:15:39 PM »
Lost City is incorrect both from your view and my view: When I gain it (on my turn), it let's my opponent draw a card before I can handle my triggers (Changeling in my tests).
That is incorrect from my view, yes. But how would it be correct from your view?

The thing with Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City, is that the "each other player" effect should belong to the player who gained the card.
And this is where we differ, I think they should belong to the other players and ordered by them.
What is it that should be ordered? With Embassy, are you saying that the other players should decide if you get to use Watchtower or Innovation before they gain Silvers? Should they take a vote to decide this? Or are you talking about the Silver gainings? They obviously go in turn order, there is no decision.

Quote
Also, this is the way we know who gets to order the gaining when you buy a card with Haggler in play and opponent's Swamp Hag in effect.
So in this example, always Haggler first and Swamp Hag second, or buying player decides (or something else)? I think gaining player decides, which also seems to go contrary to how I interpret your model.
Buying player decides. This is not an "each other player" effect. So mentioning this was a bit misleading from me. It's connected to the greater question of who abilities belong to, but it's complicated. I can get back to this if necessary.

I think you're failing to understand my first post. Maybe you can check the hypothetical example I wrote, and ask if you don't get why it shows that "each other player" has to belong to the player being addressed by the card.

5
Card Bugs / Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« on: 24 March 2020, 11:07:14 PM »
See here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19913.msg812205#msg812205
You yourself have an example with Embassy that is correct, but that is apparently not how it works in the client.

Quote
How Changeling interacts with the Embassy gains is more complicated. Once for example player B has gained an Embassy, now 2 things have triggered:
1) the mandatory Silver gain for the other players by Embassy itself, and
2) the optional exchange for a Changeling.

Both triggers 'belong' to player B, so they get to decide which order they are executed in. They can choose to do 2) before 1) and thus exchange the Embassy for a Changeling before player A (and later C and D) gain their Silvers.

A few posts later in that thread, I talk about the "each other player" rule.

6
Card Bugs / Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« on: 24 March 2020, 10:28:24 PM »
Maybe I'm not understanding you completely.

The thing with Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City, is that the "each other player" effect should belong to the player who gained the card. That player should get to order any other when-gain stuff (like Reactions) happening at the same time. So with Embassy and Watchtower: I choose which happens first: "I topdeck Embassy with Watchtower" or "each other player gains a Silver". It's exactly like the Lost City example.

EDIT: Ok, I see what you're saying now. You're saying that Embassy and IGG work correctly even though they don't work as I described above. But then why are you reading Lost City differently?

In any case, this is how "each other player" effects work. I can look for the ruling. But as I explained in my first post with the hypothetical example, it makes no sense that it's the other way. Also, this is the way we know who gets to order the gaining when you buy a card with Haggler in play and opponent's Swamp Hag in effect.

7
Card Bugs / Re: Timing of Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains and Lost City
« on: 24 March 2020, 06:43:15 PM »
I don't know if this bug has been corrected, but it became more relevant with Menagerie.

You can gain Embassy, Ill-Gotten Gains or Lost City and react with Sheepdog using Way of the Mouse on an "each other player" attack. Let's say the Way of the Mouse card is Urchin, and you have a Sheepdog in hand, and you gain Lost City. Now it matters whether you play the Sheepdog (+ Urchin via Mouse) first or the other players draw for Lost City first. And that's your decision.

8
Regarding what I wrote above:

My interpretation was wrong, because it would not allow Reactions to behave as expected. This means the rules for what "when you play" means are a bit more complex than I thought. In any case, it means the following:

I was wrong in my possible interpretation regarding Champion (before the new ruling) not triggering on its own playing. All "after" abilities (like Citadel) trigger after the played card is resolved, not before. So Champion needs to be "first" in order to not give you an extra Action when you play it.

The conclusion is that Champion happens "first" (and will apparently say that in new printings), while Sauna and Merchant still happen after.

9
So it adopted an "as long as triggers for an event haven't been handled completely and are over, new relevant trigger effects appearing will also trigger" approach . This leads to a Hireling double played by Ghost at start of turn actually giving you twice +1 card that same turn.

So that would mean the "For the rest of the game" ability appearing during Champion's playing is existing and relevant at the time 'normal' "When you play an Actions card" triggers are checked at the end of Champion's resolution.
Your explanation of new abilities triggering is accurate, but it's not relevant to what I was saying. My point was that Champion triggers right when you play an Action card (before you resolve the Action card) but would be resolved after resolving the Action card. This means that when you play it, its own "rest of the game" ability is not triggered. Please take a look at what I wrote again, and also check out the post I linked to in the Strategy Forum.

I can add that this interpretation is in line with how things work in Dominion. First of all, it's certain that an ability can have triggered without being resolved while other abilities are resolved in the meantime. (Talisman and Haggler in play, buy a card. Both trigger, but one is resolved first while the other waits.) Then we can extrapolate this to how abilites set up future effects: Play a Charm, it has a "when you play this" ability (happening right now) which says "the next time you buy a card", which is in the future. It's set up when you play the card, but it happens later.

Enchantress should also be interpreted this way: It triggers when you play an Action card, but is resolved when you would resolve the Action card's play ability. (Lantern and Ways work the same way.) Royal Carriage also triggers on playing an Action card, but is resolved after. I don't really see any other interpretation that makes much sense and is consistent (and I've been working on cataloging the timing in Dominion for a long time).

10
Ingix replied the following, which has not been moved from the other thread:


So to me Champion would also trigger when you play an Action card, but give you +1 Action after you resolve the played card. (Sauna and Merchant would work the same way.) I said the same thing here. So no matter if the +1 Action happened "first" or "after", it would not trigger on its own playing. (But note that it does make a difference when playing a Storyteller that plays a Diadem, and when playing a Snowy Village.)

But I think it is established that because Reaction cards exist that are hidden in a player's hand, the game cannot go by the "an effect must have been present at the time of the event in order to trigger" paradigm, because no other player can verify if a given Reaction card was already present in a player's hand at trigger time (Secret Chamber finding Moat example).

So it adopted an "as long as triggers for an event haven't been handled completely and are over, new relevant trigger effects appearing will also trigger" approach . This leads to a Hireling double played by Ghost at start of turn actually giving you twice +1 card that same turn.

So that would mean the "For the rest of the game" ability appearing during Champion's playing is existing and relevant at the time 'normal' "When you play an Actions card" triggers are checked at the end of Champion's resolution.

11
AFAIK, Sauna and Merchant are still 'normal' effects that happen after the Silver on-play effect is over.

In my understanding, if Champion was also a normal effect that happens after the playing of an Action card, it would give +2 Actions in aggregate for its own playing (one explicite, one as part of the "For the rest of the game ..." ability.

Before Menagerie, the difference mattered only for Diadem, now it also matters for Snowy Village.

Well, it depends on how you interpret the timing of "when you play a card" and stuff that happens before you resolve it (like Reactions) and stuff that happens after you resolve it (like Citadel). It makes the most sense that they all trigger when you actually play it, before you resolve it. Otherwise it gets kind of ugly to define and describe. Citadel triggers when "you play an Action card", and does something "after", meaning after you resolve the card.

So to me Champion would also trigger when you play an Action card, but give you +1 Action after you resolve the played card. (Sauna and Merchant would work the same way.) I said the same thing here. So no matter if the +1 Action happened "first" or "after", it would not trigger on its own playing. (But note that it does make a difference when playing a Storyteller that plays a Diadem, and when playing a Snowy Village.)

12
That's because in addition to your opponent's Reaction cards, some of your own cards/tokens can cause a "first" effect to happen: The +$1, +1 Buy and +1 Action tokens from Adventures, and Champion from the Page traveller line.

Donald's latest ruling is that Champion's +1 Action happens after resolving the card, not before.

No, it isn't any more. Champion's effect is a first effect. This was discussed intesively in preparation for the set's programming, including Donald X.

Oh. Well, his latest public ruling was that it happens after (having originally ruled that it happens before). But I'll take your word for it of course, so that makes your announcement here the new official ruling, I guess. So then can you tell me if the ruling has also changed for Sauna and Merchant? Donald's latest known ruling was that these (along with Champion) don't "secretly" say first. But Champion does now secretly say it, so I guess these could too.

13
Card Bugs / Re: Gaining bugs with Innovation etc.
« on: 05 March 2020, 07:25:42 PM »
The Mint bugs are still not in the bug list...

14
That's because in addition to your opponent's Reaction cards, some of your own cards/tokens can cause a "first" effect to happen: The +$1, +1 Buy and +1 Action tokens from Adventures, and Champion from the Page traveller line.

Donald's latest ruling is that Champion's +1 Action happens after resolving the card, not before.

Also note that gaining from Kiln happens before you decide on using the Way. This could even mean that you play the gained copy via Innovation before deciding. Urchin also happens before, so you could play Mercenary via Innovation before deciding. I assume you've taken all that into account.

15
Card Bugs / Re: Gaining bugs with Innovation etc.
« on: 17 September 2019, 08:28:20 PM »
I also reported some bugs after the intial post.

The first one was fixed.

The second one is not fixed. This is Mint/Innovation. I tried now, game 30743535, turn 9. Here I actually had 3 when-buy abilities: Mint, Haggler and Charm. I don't get to choose Mint before any of the others, which is also a bug. The important thing is the gaining of Crown (from Charm). The Crown is played via Innovation. In the end Mint resolves, but the Crown is not trashed. Crown should be trashed. And this is why you should be able to resolve Mint first.

The third post reports of interactions that work, although it's displayed in the wrong place in the log.

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