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Messages - Ingix

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Feature Requests / Streamlined discard interface for Quest
« on: 01 March 2017, 02:34:46 PM »
I suggest changing the discard interface of Quest as follows:

Display a "Don't discard" button, but also make all the cards in user's hand click-able. Let the user click on the card(s) he wants to discard. Display the "Undo" button when appropriate to allow a new choice. But the important part: Show a "Discard to gain a Gold" button only when the selected cards match what Quests requires: It must be exactly one attack or exactly 2 Curses or exactly 6 cards. In order to accommodate the rulings on Quest, in case exactly one Curse is selected or all the cards (but less than 6) are selected, display a "Discard, but gain no Gold" button (with a blood-red background or something similar so that it is understood immediately that this is not what you usually want).

A player buys the Quest event knowing exactly what he wants to discard, because there is no knew information gained during Quest's resolution. With the current implementation, he has to first select 1 of 4 buttons, then he has to select the cards to discard.

In the real life card game, I'm not announcing first that I discard Curses and then discard the Curses, I just discard them and everybody can see that I did something legal. My proposed change would bring the interface in line with the philosophy that the player should 'just' select cards as often as possible and that artificial buttons should be restricted to a minimum. Sometimes they are necessary, but in this case they are IMO superfluous.

Feature Requests / Streamline discard interface for Plaza
« on: 01 March 2017, 02:15:00 PM »
I suggest changing the discard interface for Plaza as follows.

Highlight the treasure cards (click-able) in the player's hand and display the "Don't discard" button on screen. If I want to discard, I just click on one treasure. If I don't want to discard, I click on the button.

This follows the philosophy that clicking on the treasure card in hand indicates both that I want to discard and what I want to discard. It also mimics the real life handling of that situation, where I would take the treasure from my hand and put it into the discard pile. The "Don't discard" button should IMO make it sufficiently clear that clicking on a treasure is not going to play it at this time.

General Discussion / Re: Missing the most after 2 months
« on: 01 March 2017, 01:31:23 PM »
1) An AI that does at least reasonable things at a tactical level (not Chapeling its Provinces or discarding its own 2 Gold with Oracle)

2) An AI that takes into account Landmarks: It seems not to care at all about Bandit Fort/Wall (negative victory points for certain cards), it doesn't consider buying a curse even with 12 victory points on Defiled Shrine and generally acts (in my limited capacity to watch its behavior) as though a landmark doesn't exist.

3)Visual implementation of the "-1 card draw" token (right on top of the player's deck, please) and the "-1 coin gain" token (not sure where, maybe in the area that already potentially contains Journey token, coin tokens a.s.o.

General Discussion / Re: Journey Token
« on: 23 February 2017, 09:28:36 AM »
The rulebook is written for the real life board game version. I am pretty sure that in that version there is a colored side and a blank side (no gray side). Clearly Colored is face-up and Gray is face-down.

Thanks for the correction. I was more remembering the MF version than the board game version, and I couldn't check the latter at the time of writing. That makes the current implementation opposite of what is supposed to happen in the board game version, which is probably very confusing to players.

Interface Issues / Journey token used when no card requires it
« on: 22 February 2017, 07:15:32 PM »
Maybe I'm not seeing the obvious, but in game #1438581 the client showed the Journey token when there was no card that required it. Black Market wasn't involved either, see attached screen shot,

General Discussion / Re: Journey Token
« on: 22 February 2017, 01:30:12 PM »
I think what this boils down to is the simple question: Which of the sides the of Journey token (colored, grey) is the face up side, and which is the face down side? I just checked the Adventures rule book online, and it actually never says! It only ever talks about it being face up/down, but never about colored/grey.

I always considered the colored side the face up side, and it seems that many players here agree.

The bug ist still present in version 1.1.2.

My suspicion is that the bug is somehow caused by the interplay between potions and coin tokens. The bug can again be found in game #1419628, decision 70. In the same game, at decision 25, a very similar situation works as it should be: I have 2 copper and a silver in hand, no potion this time. Clicking "Autoplay Treasures" and then clicking the Duchy works: My coin token is used to get the 5th coin needed to buy the Duchy.

In a game against a bot I had AutoBuy set to "on". I was in my buy phase and had played treasure to the value of 4 coin and 1 potion. Since I had 1 coin token, the Duchy pile had the little "+" sign showing I could buy from it. I clicked on the Duchy pile and the game client went "belly up" in the sense that it didn't continue the game. The "+" signs were removed from the piles, but otherwise nothing happened (see screenshot). I could undo without a problem and repeat my action, to the same effect.

The game is #1387723 and the decision is 202 (beginning of that buy phase). The following behaviours from that point work as they should be (getting me the Duchy and continuing the game):

1) Clicking on the Duchy immmediately.
2) Clicking "Autoplay Treasures", then clicking on "1 Token" to explicitly change the coin token into 1 coin, then clicking on Duchy.

What does not work (the scenario I encountered) is

3) Clicking on "Autoplay Treasures", then clicking on Duchy.

Since one can replay old games, knowing the game number is an important peace of information. Replay allows an ad hoc implementation of the often requested feature to 'save a kingdom for later use': Just replay the game from decision 1 (or is it 0?)! It also allows the Devs and rules-interested people to look at situations that have been flagged on the forum as possible bugs, like this one


The original poster did provide a log listing that cleared up the problem, but this of course cannot be expected from every player. In the end, Stef asked for the game number to check this in detail and the original poster asked back how to get it. Since at this time the game in question was long over, there was/is no way I know of to get that number.

For those reasons, I think it would be a very useful feature to get a list of games played by oneself, ordered chronologically with the time it was played. This way, the thought "I want to play that Kingdom from Friday evening again" becomes a manageable tasks, as well as the ability to find out which was the game played that initiated the above mentioned forum thread.

Nice to see that Band of Misfit(BoM)/Overlord got updated to show the characteristics of the copied card!

The following happened on Version 1.1.1: When you Throne Room a BoM and choose to impersonate something that stays in play, the second playing of the BoM correctly does not allow to choose a new card to impersonate, as the BoM still is the card it is impersonating. If the impersonated card has a token from the Adventure expansion on its pile, the token bonus will be given twice for the second playing, so three times taking into account the original playing. It should only be given once for the second playing.

See the appended screenshot from game #1223106, where a Throne Roomed BoM copies a Fortress that has the +1coin token on its pile. If you go to decision 150, you see the Bot's last turn, then can replay that turn.

I can confirm with tufftaeh that this is not a bug but the correct interaction between Black Market and Haunted Woods. I reprodcued the scenario in game #1215575 on my turn 6.

As tufftaeh noted, the 'suprising' part may be that the topdecking effect of Haunted Woods happens before the card from Black Market is gained, but that is due to Haunted Woods triggering on 'buy', not 'gain'.

@Linda B: If you have questions about the explanations, feels free to ask!

Interface Issues / Re: right-click on Mac
« on: 08 February 2017, 11:51:59 AM »
I'm not sure if calling "This is 2017!" is actually proving me wrong, as I guess I may be seriously out of touch with how the general computing environment has developed over the last 30 years. But a device that uses something like a mouse pointer (no matter if it is moved around by an actual mouse or trackball or touch pad or whatever) should have a simple way to do what has been for the last 20+ years known as 'left click' and 'right click'.

I'm totally understanding that for touch devices that paradigm of a mouse pointer is no longer relevant, but I assume ehunt was talking about a Mac laptop/notebook or whatever Apple calls them these days. I'm all for special clients that work great on mouse, touch screen or whatever, but complaining that the current client (in a browser) on a mouse pointer driven device is using right clicks is 'seriously strange' to me. But as I told above, I may be out of touch with reality, since I'm using Windows desktops exclusively as my computers.

I tried this and could make it work in game #1056956 on tokyo.
The game continued correctly: I trashed a copper, nothing happened as I could not gain any card with my 2 tokens and I went to my buy phase.

Card Bugs / Re: Overlord/BoM/trash
« on: 07 February 2017, 01:48:23 PM »
According to the letter of the rules, as discussed above, I would now conclude that that Overlord card is still emulating a Lurker in my hand, as the effect that made it a Lurker hasn't stopped yet.
No, the effect that made Overlord into Lurker stopped as soon as it started.

BoM and Overlord stop being whatever if they are ever not in play, even if this does not involve moving from play to elsewhere. This is an old ruling addressing BoM / Feast.

BoM and Overlord have 2 parts.

A) Play this as if it were an Action card ...
B) This is that card until it leaves play.

I'm trying to figure out what A) actually means, rules wise, and if B) is
X) just reminder text to explain what A) means, or
Y) continuing the effect of A) until the card leaves play, or
Z) something else entirely.

To get some questions:
1) If Overlord chooses BoM to copy, while BoM is executing its A) part and figuring out what its cost is, is that cost already 5 coins or still 8 debt?

I assume the intended answer is that the cost has already been changed to 5 coins, at the same time as all the other relevant characteristics have changed (including text) as part of the Overlord action executing.

2)If I Throne Room Overlord, pick a Feast the first time and BoM a second time, does the answer to the above question (does the BoM read its own cost as 5 coins or 8 debt) change?

According to http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Overlord, the answer is that the Overlord/BoM in the trash sees its cost as 8 debt.

If this is a change to 1) depends of course on the correct answer to 1). But if the answers are indeed different, I'd like to understand why. The ds. page says that the cost does not change for the Overlord in the Trash. If its cost did not change, did its text change? If yes, why the difference, if no, why are we executing the text of BoM?

Earlier in this thread:

Quote from: Donald X.
We never lose track of what a card's text is though. Almost always you can look at the randomizer if you need to know it. In rare cases e.g. the Madmen run out, you would have to check the rulebook or your phone. Probably though, if the Madmen run out, you know what the card does.

In my opinion, with Inheritance a Dominion event you cannot argue this way. The text of a card is of then no longer a constant (that was true already with BoM), but it is also no longer tied to a card name.

If you Throne Room an a card, you play it twice. The first time you play it, it starts in play, so you can actually follow its (maybe modified by Inheritance, self-modified by BoM/Overlord or affected by Enchantress) card text. The second time you play it, it may or may not be in play any longer. If it is no longer in play, how does the game decide on its text (and other characteristics, if necessary)?

Is it really a simple "What's printed on the physical cardboard of the card that was chosen to be played by Throne Room" as a rule or is it a more complicated "The characteristics of the played card, as modified by the game, but it turns out that if the card is not in play all currently existing modifying effects no longer apply to it in it's current place (because the only place it could be are the supply and the trash and Inheritance does not work there)"?

Generally, the current rulings on BoM/Overlord/Inheritance, especially your reversal on Throne Rooming a BoM that copies something that stays in play, afford a very easy 'mental model' (something that I think permeates a lot of Dominion design): These 'copy' effects change characteristics of a card for a while, so anything that looks for those characteristics will see the changed ones. BoM/Overlord change themselves, Inheritance changes Estates.

That 'for a while' got clarified in a sensible way for Overlord/BoM by you above. I think it has also been established that Inheritance can change those characteristics for some zones not in play. What I'm unsure about is if 'play a card' effects do access those characteristics or not.

This is a case where a very good interface (letting you click on the card to gain directly and deducting the necessary coins automatically) can backfire in a rare case.

My suggestion: The game needs to figure out anyway which cards are gain-able with the available coins. Let it do the same with an assumed coin count of zero (that is, find out what the trashed card cost and find all the top supply cards with a lesser or equal cost). If the latter turns out empty, then present the user with an additional option "Don't spend coins and don't gain a card".

This way, the current intuitive interface is not changed in the overwhelming majority of cases, and edge cases like this can be handled with just a simple option.

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