Well-meaning but harsh criticism of the new platform

[Panoptikus]

Dear new owners of online dominion,

I know that you are part of the online dominion community for several years and really aspired to release a version that would correct the flaws of Goko and Making Fun and satisfy the needs of folks still dreaming about isotropic. I am also a hardcore dominion player myself (several thousands of games at Makung Fun) and I really see the technical improvements you have done.

However...

This implementation continues a worrying trend in online dominion history: releasing a product that is simply not finished. Currently this implementation is in many aspects inferior to the making fun client. I will just poin out two flaws.

1. The internet today is an increasingly mobile internet - desktop usage is becoming a niche. Your interface is clearly not optimized for IOS or android, the sheer fact that the interface makes "right clicking" necessary to get info about cards speaks volumes.
2. the interface looks like an amateur product, reminiscent of the state of the art of the 1990ies. Today, even simple mobile games usually have a good looking interface. There is way too much text - the use of the log should e.g. be an option not a necessity.

My point is: the interface is good for the hardcore users (I personally don't have much problems with it), but full of design flaws that will never attract casual gamers. Clearly your priorities were "technical functionalities' not a the design of a modern game Interface. IMHO the redesign of your interface should be your absolute priority. I really want you guys to succeed but in the current form your product is destined to fail. Do not take the positive comments here and at Dominion Strategy too serious because I fear they do not reflect the opinions and needs of the average (dominion) player but  a limited group of hardcore fans. I showed the interface to people not familiar with online dominion and they turned away in terror...

I know this critique is quite harsh but really inspired by my desire that online dominion should finally be a success story. Your subscription model per se is perfect to to really atrrect the contemporary gamer - it would be great if it would generate enough money to make your business sustainable.

[Watno]

Dedicated mobile apps are definitely planned.

[Anak]

Thats all true.

I am disappointed with the change
The game is now unclear and does not work as finished

And an abo over 40 euro is just way too much for the scrap

Before it was much much better

Have not seen such a bad management for a long time

I'm sorry - this will not be a success

[quori1]

Dedicated mobile apps are definitely planned.

A dedicated mobile app should have been NUMBER ONE ON YOUR LIST. This has to be the most short sighted and backwards development of a gaming app I've seen in forever. As the original poster pointed out perfectly...this is app development from the 1990's. This is horrid.

[tufftaeh]

The current implementation is much better than what Goko had at their start. And that was a multi-million dollar company. Please have a little patience with Shuffle iT who had to release on January 1st even if the product was not yet completely polished.

[JunkDealer]

 Goko, Shuffleit, and Making Fun have all encountered the same basic mistake.... They over promised and under delivered.  In this case expectation of users was not appropriately set prior to release causing the backlash in comments you are seeing here.  It amazes me that given all of the harsh criticism levelled at Making Fun for some of their decisions I see the exact same mistakes being made here.  In my opinion, and that's ultimately what these boil down to... opinions, is anybody not directly involved with the development of this new version was expecting something that maintained functionality at launch not a step backwards with promises of future features sometime in 2017.  Given what was available at launch I wonder if they will even meet those deadlines.  We all know how awful software companies are at meeting deadlines.  Hopefully in the long run it will be better, but in the short term expect people to be frustrated.  Rather than ask for patience it would be far better to appologise and provide detailed timelines and updates as it becomes clear those deadlines will be missed.

[quori1]

My issue is not even in regards to promised vs. delivered. It is entirely around DELIVERED. The previous version of the product was playable on my device choices. This one is NOT.

It's like a car company choosing to replace their 4 door model sedan with an entirely new model and it being undrivable on my roads. Its unacceptable!

If ShuffleIt did not have a viable product ready to release and replace the existing one, then the existing one should have had their contract extended so as not to detract from my experience as the consumer.

[16crab]

I could not agree more with the original poster.

Our household has just gotten into games in the last couple of years, and just got into Dominion this summer. To find that the Making Fun app was free was such a delight. Husband and I played hundreds (maybe even thousands?) of games against bots and each other, and the two kids played a fair bit as well. But if this new site stays as is, we are probably all done - never mind how difficult it was to get on (waiting for the site to load, then waiting for the email) the game play is just awful compared to the Making Fun app - painfully slow game play (not a slow connection, just how long it takes to get through a turn) and totally un-intuitive on the iPad.  If there were flaws in the previous app, they were not obvious to the casual player. A better route would have been to have charged for the app to generate the funds to fix whatever was wrong with the app. I will keep checking back occasionally to see if there are improvements - hopefully the developers will take all of the criticism under advisement.

[gkrieg]

I could not agree more with the original poster.

Our household has just gotten into games in the last couple of years, and just got into Dominion this summer. To find that the Making Fun app was free was such a delight. Husband and I played hundreds (maybe even thousands?) of games against bots and each other, and the two kids played a fair bit as well. But if this new site stays as is, we are probably all done - never mind how difficult it was to get on (waiting for the site to load, then waiting for the email) the game play is just awful compared to the Making Fun app - painfully slow game play (not a slow connection, just how long it takes to get through a turn) and totally un-intuitive on the iPad.  If there were flaws in the previous app, they were not obvious to the casual player. A better route would have been to have charged for the app to generate the funds to fix whatever was wrong with the app. I will keep checking back occasionally to see if there are improvements - hopefully the developers will take all of the criticism under advisement.

If you feel the gameplay is slow, you should go into your settings and uncheck "wait for animations" and turn on autobuy.  I think the current implementation is much faster than MF was.

Also, they have been pushing out new updates to the beta with huge improvements about twice a week for those in the beta.  I know they also plan to do different interfaces for different groups of people.  Now that they have all (almost) of the cards implemented, and a working client, it should be easy for them to do different interfaces for casual and hardcore gamers.

[Watno]

Everything that was free on MF's implementation (playing with the base set and cards your opponents own) is still free in the new implementation.
Your feedback will definitely be taken into account.

[followthebeer]

well said. the interface is really difficult to look at - combined with all the bugs.  I feel like im using a commodore 64.  I want this to succeed more than anyone since i also had several thousand games played on making fun.  i think you guys should ask MF for some help on the interface and the functionality.  their model was ideal.  right-clicking really should not be an option.

[tufftaeh]

well said. the interface is really difficult to look at - combined with all the bugs.  I feel like im using a commodore 64.  I want this to succeed more than anyone since i also had several thousand games played on making fun.  i think you guys should ask MF for some help on the interface and the functionality.  their model was ideal.  right-clicking really should not be an option.

Which device/OS/browser are you using? I suggest you play a few more games and then post a prioritized list of the issues you have. Or you can simply wait until they (or most of them) are fixed. When it comes to matters of personal taste, this might not happen by itself, however, so I would recommend posting constructive suggestions.

[PrincessAnnaM]

I also agree with everything said above. I too had over 2,000 games in the Making Fun app and am incredibly disappointed with the new interface. Below are a sample of my many issues with this new iteration of dominion:

1. The new iteration is nearly unplayable on my phone and tablet. I have played dominion during my lunch break nearly every work day and it is frustrating that is no longer practical. The necessity to right click in order to view card, the inability to close the chat box and game log, and the fact that the cards are blurry completely ruin the experience.

2. There is a general lack of esthetic appeal. The design is rather unprofessional and while I appreciated the customizability, it is both unintuitive and clunky. For example, while it is possible to have multiplayer games (with multiple computers) it is no longer as easy to do this.

3. The lack of campaign mode. I have read in the forums that this is coming, however I find it, once again, unprofessional that the response was that it is coming but there was no eta given.

Frankly, an esthetic interface and app should have been a priority and at this point I would rather be playing Making Fun's version. I am hopeful that this version will continue to be updated, but as it stands I am incredibly disappointed.

[heeyuck]

Not to pile on, but I agree with those above, as well. I played thousands of games on the MF version and introduced many people to it. I'm not sure I would introduce this version to people as it currently stands. I'm a hardcore fan of the game and so will play via smoke signal if necessary, but most casual/recreational players will just go onto something else that is easier to use.

The layout is busy and not intuitive. Getting information about what the other player did is annoying. Heck, knowing what I did is annoying (example: Rebuild. Did something get trashed? What? What can I replace it with? Oh, I have to find the tiny words in the wall of text that is the right third of the screen and/or I could notice those tiny symbols in the corner of those tiny cards to the left).

I can't speak for other aspects of MF, but the client was top notch. It was easy to play, to SEE what you and your opponent did, to SEE what the next action had to be--who it's on, do I have to trash/discard, etc--and to SEE what your options are--what cards are left, what part of your turn, what you can conceivably still do, etc.

I introduced friends to the game itself through the MF version because it was so easy to use, it was visually appealing, and it made the game easier to play. I would not introduce new people to this version, as it currently stands.

Suggestions/requests: make things BIGGER. My cards should be obvious. The board should be obvious. The commands boxes should be obvious (but not pasted on top of the board).

Make things ACCESSIBLE. I should be able to see the trash, to go through the tournament pile, to see what card my opponent gained as it happens (not upside down), and, of course, to see my own hand in full, not half cut off.

Make things SIMPLER. I definitely do not feel the final client should be largely text-driven--it's way too hard to play that on a phone, for example. Lose the necessity of the 1/3 screen wall of text. And put all command boxes in one common area. I shouldn't have to click in half a dozen different areas to enact commands. I mean that literally--If I'm playing treasures the command box is in one place, if I'm ending my turn it's in another, if I'm ending just my actions it's in another, if I'm trashing cards from my hand it's in another, if trashing via Sentry the command's in another place, if I want to play Royal Carriage then I have to follow the directions of one bit of text to the tiny-font text box to click on that (???)...it's really ridiculous. If nothing else, please take a page out of MF's book for ease of the flow of the game.

I, too, want this implementation to succeed. There's some attractive features--the background is nice, the cards, although small, look nice. The undo button is a great idea. I am ecstatic to have Empires finally implemented online. But if this client is going to have mass appeal--if it's going to be something that will hook new players and have a shot at getting into their wallets--then the entire interface needs to be overhauled to something simpler and more visual.

[Wolfhere]

I also agree with those above.  I used to relax after dinner in my easy chair, a cup of coffee, and my iPad.  I'd read the news and play Dominion.  Now I just read the news because Dominion on the tablet is almost unplayable.  I know an iOS client is planned, but I'm disappointed that it wasn't ready at launch.  Aside from the beautiful artwork and the addition of Empires, the whole experience is a very large step backwards.

The only thing I want to add to the comments above is that when you're pushing forward with design changes, the entire flow of play should NOT require the log.  I rarely, if ever used the log with MF's implementation.  The only time I did was if I forgot who started first and I wanted to push a tie.  The visual interface was good enough that I didn't need a log, and on a small iPad screen that's exactly what's needed.

I wish the designers well and hope there will be positive changes in the coming year.  I miss my after dinner games of Dominion.

[tufftaeh]

Sorry if I repeat myself but everybody complaining about small cards and a crowded interface, please mention which device/OS/browser are you using. I play on full-screen Firefox under Windows 10 at 1920*1080 resolution (on a 55 inch TV), and there is nothing too small. I expect specific UI modifications for the future mobile clients.

[ghorty]

Samsung Tab S and Nexus 7(2nd gen), the current game is designed for a computer, not tablets.

[heeyuck]

Sorry if I repeat myself but everybody complaining about small cards and a crowded interface, please mention which device/OS/browser are you using. I play on full-screen Firefox under Windows 10 at 1920*1080 resolution (on a 55 inch TV), and there is nothing too small. I expect specific UI modifications for the future mobile clients.

The exact same setup I played with the MF version, which had none of those problems: A Windows 10 Laptop, 1366x768 resolution, 16" screen. I imagine many things that are small are no longer small on a 55" screen.

[Megas_Droungarios]

As I only play on a laptop, I have no issues with mobile platform issues.  I do think at very least there should be a sticky here in the forum explaining how the new interface works, or better still, a tutorial with good explanations reachable directly from the interface page. 

And can't they program Inheritance?  It was a great event.

[halapenyoharry]

I'm afraid we are going to lose a lot of users with this version.  Had I not been very deliberate with my wife in getting her account setup she would have quit using it and she played every night with MF. 

Perhaps when the mobile versions come out they will return, but a few things have to be fixed before then.

1. There are so many ways to play and entry points. That's pretty confusing to me and I played thousands of games on MF and play often the physical game board.

2. The movement of the kingdom cards between players turn makes me a little sick.  Its too much movement. 

3. Right Click is not a move most people get.  I recommend a click and hold, click hold and menu, click and menu (buy or read), or a "buy" button in the corner (but bigger than MF's buy button).

4. It doesn't need to replicate the physical experience so much.  i.e. upside down cards.

5. overlays often get in the way of viewing the cards or clicking to read more.

6. you need to be able to hide the game log and ideally open it in another window.

7. Needs sound.

8. I can't login from work if I forgot to close the window at home.  This is really dissapointing.

9. this is feature request: When I play treasures int he physical game I will be confidently lay them down all at once so they don't know I have more in my hand.  This is harder with the autoplay feature... maybe have an choice of which combo to play somehow.

Now, to be fair, here is what I love and hope to continue to see.
1. The placement of Victory and treasure cards makes a lot of sense and up in a corner out of the way.

2. the way the cards flip out is a nice reminder of where they are come from.

3. The truncation of the visuals for the kingdom card saves space and will be great for the mobile version.

4. The background artwork is beautiful.

5. The confirmations and undo are amazingly great, but sort of seems redundant, maybe make this more clear.

6. I like the ability to look at the cards and review what they mean int he "familiar cards" section.  but this could be in a glossary or whatever, I totally don't get that familiar is for  yet, but think I have an idea.

Thanks for your work and hope we see mobile version very soon.

[ffejselur]

The movement of the kingdom cards between players turn makes me a little sick.  Its too much movement. 

If you click the Options button on the main screen, then change the 1st option "Move kingdom and play area" from Yes to No this annoying problem will go away. HTH

[jsh]

9. this is feature request: When I play treasures int he physical game I will be confidently lay them down all at once so they don't know I have more in my hand.  This is harder with the autoplay feature... maybe have an choice of which combo to play somehow.

Already implemented. Go to your Options and turn on the "Autobuy" feature. Be warned it will take a few games to get used to playing with it, and you may make a few mistakes with Debt etc.

[ThetaSigma12]

With 8 just hit kick & resign. Unintuitve but it works.

[gkrieg]

2. The movement of the kingdom cards between players turn makes me a little sick.  Its too much movement. 

You can also turn this off in the settings.

3. Right Click is not a move most people get.  I recommend a click and hold, click hold and menu, click and menu (buy or read), or a "buy" button in the corner (but bigger than MF's buy button).

But once you figure it out, it is much better than having to click on the corner to see what a card does.

8. I can't login from work if I forgot to close the window at home.  This is really dissapointing.

You just need to put in your login and password and click "kick" at the bottom of the login screen then login from your other computer.  You could even continue a game after you reconnect!

5. The confirmations and undo are amazingly great, but sort of seems redundant, maybe make this more clear.

You can turn these off in the settings if you feel they are redundant.

[MVoltaire]

8. I can't login from work if I forgot to close the window at home.  This is really dissapointing.

You just need to put in your login and password and click "kick" at the bottom of the login screen then login from your other computer.  You could even continue a game after you reconnect!

I think, you don't even have to do this anymore. It was changed with the new release. You can now just login even if you were still logged in at home. Only if you are still "stuck" in a game or something like that you have to use "kick & resign", I think.

[geraldoa]

Panoptikus,

I played this new web-based Dominion for the first time today using Chrome on relatively new Android Tablet. I found some annoying interface problems not to mention the game crashed/froze when the match ended, it did not even declare who was the winner.

I came to this forum and found your post saying most of the things I wanted to say.

I reinforce that launching Dominion only for web browsers AND not designing it to work well on tablets is a huge mistake. Even the front page is bad, if you choose "sign-up" by mistake instead of "login", there is no going back, you have to manually reload the page. The website version I am using is 1.0.4.1.

I also hope that the new developer is able to fix it. Dominion deserves better.

Geraldo

[Elanchana]

There's one thing that I don't see anybody's brought up in this thread, and I think it's relevant, so I'll say it here.

It seems like S&S designed a lot of this interface with Isotropic in mind. I know a lot of hardcore players "grew up" (for lack of a better term) playing Dominion on Iso, so it would feel more familiar to them. But the thing about Iso is that it's entirely text-based. There's no play area, no reveal box, hardly any visual representation of anything. Even the graphic mode operated only through the game log. And it's understandable why S&S liked that from a technical perspective - text-based stuff is easier to make than graphic stuff.

But Dominion is still a card game, not a word game. What Goko/MF brought to the game when they took over is the feeling that you're actually playing with cards, rather than generating lines of text. People who started on Goko (including me) learned to keep track of games by seeing them happen, not by reading about them, which is what would happen in a real life card game. Yes there's still a log, and it helps to have the log visible just in case you miss something, but unless there are tricky, complex, super-fine-tuned combo moves involved, you can usually understand exactly what's going on without even looking at the log. And of course there were complaints about the Goko/MF interface, but they were mostly about things like bugs and misclicks, which makes sense given the sheer complexity of Dominion mechanics.

Now there's Shuffle iT, which is in the awkward place of trying to combine Goko's dynamic with Iso's functionality. And they're just not getting there. They look like they want to keep the card game feel, but it's compromised by heavy dependence on the log. I understand that some buttons, boxes, and other features haven't been placed yet, but there are a few features that look fully implemented (some reveal areas, for example) and yet are nearly impossible to interpret without reading the log's description. If S&S take anything from this post and this thread, it should be that they need to make this an interface where the game log isn't vital to understanding what's going on. The text-based Iso era is over. This is still a card game.

[quori1]

What Goko/MF brought to the game when they took over is the feeling that you're actually playing with cards, rather than generating lines of text.

This is why I have stated that Blizzard's Hearthstone is THE benchmark here. It is the single most successful digital card game developed. It is available for both desktop (Mac and Win) and mobile (iOS and Android). It is smooth and clean, the design of everything in it is amazing. It is a fully intuitive UI and sets the bar for any other digital card games.

I did not expect the new release of Dominion to match Hearthstone...but I did expect it to at least match what MakingFun had done. I've stated this before the single biggest issue I see is that this new version of Dominion Online was "designed" by "developers" without any understanding of UDX. I say this as a professional designer and developer for the past 15 years in Financial Services. Sites and materials I have designed and developed have won industry awards on this...so I am not critiquing without any expertise here. I know I come across as harsh, but truly...the UI is HORRID. I saw another poster state it perfectly that this seems "amateur" that is exactly it.

[twasa]

This is why I have stated that Blizzard's Hearthstone is THE benchmark here.

Yes, maybe, but also a card game that has been online since 2014, so not really a fair comparison. I get that people had high expectations and feel disappointed, but frankly mine have been exceeded already, having been around long enough to know the Goko and MF issues.

Stick around, I'm sure the current UI issues are high priority.

[twasa]

But Dominion is still a card game, not a word game.

I think you have a fair point, that the game log should be incidental to the game play and that all information required to follow what you opponent has done on their turn, should not require reading a log. Stef has acknowledged as much himself. So one can expect improvements towards that I would think.

Still, your distinction made me think. Perhaps Dominion and card games in general are really word games at bottom? Although one doesn't need to implement them as text only.

[Polk5440]

All games are spreadsheets.

[Witherweaver]

I find a lot of this criticism really odd.  For me, Making Fun was 100% unplayable upon release (by which I mean, when they released their new version over Goko).  I could not finish a single game, and could rarely start games.

With Shuffle iT, I saw an email show up, during the Day on Dec. 31.  I signed over, immediately logged in, after looking for a couple of seconds started a game against a bot.  Had no issues playing other than interface things that are new and that I wasn't aware of (e.g., right-click for descriptions, where to find Native Village mat).  Games ran smoothly.. no lag, no boots, no freezes.  Found how to customize stuff easily.

I do see that development is not complete, so the criticism of releasing an unfinished product is valid.  But comparing me being able to simply sit down and play games the day before the release for Shuffle iT's implementation to me not being able to play at all for maybe weeks after Making Fun's implementation, this is excellent by comparison.

Maybe I just got lucky, I don't know. 

Edit: I should point out, this as all on a laptop, in a browser.  I haven't tried playing on a tablet in browser.  I never tried to play a mobile version of Making Fun's implementation... I honestly never even considered it since their original release on PC was risking overheating my laptop.  But I can understand how someone that primarily plays through a tablet would be annoyed at a browser-only PC release.

[Witherweaver]

Regarding aesthetics, well that's pretty opinion-based.  This interface is functional, and to me that makes it aesthetic.  There could be some minor modifications of the specifics of placements, shapes, colors, and the like, but I think the overall design looks nice.  Goko/Making Fun was more "cartoony" and it gave more of a feeling of actually playing cards, but I don't think either of those things are preferable.

[Witherweaver]

Update, played on my tablet, Galaxy Tab S.  It is much much laggier.  Playable but frustrating.  Though interface is not really a problem.. hold on card to read description.  (Note: text does not scale correctly here.)

[Panoptikus]

Wow, that really exploded...
After several games I really adjusted to the new interface - even on IOS.  However, I am not an casual player (and you will need those to make this work). As some have already said: the new implementation is designed by people with a great technical understanding of dominion functionality. The platform would have been a good heir to isotropic. But in order to become a good online card game, the interface needs to be transformed from a text based interface to an intuitive gaming interface.
It was a mistake IMO to release such an unpolished product, but I know that this kind of criticism is not helpful. A lot of good points to improve the implementation were already made in the answers to my opening post. I think we all agree that we want online dominion to improve so I hope the delevopers might take some points into consideration.
It agree BTW that what has been delivered here is way better than the early days of Goko - but that shouldn't be our benchmark, should it? it would be great to have a product in the next month that really surpasses MF (instead of doing some thing better and done things worse)