Possession bugs with other cards interaction

[Yariv]

In a Possession game I noticed 2 bugs:

1) With Goons, when possessed player had Goons in play and buy cards, bought cards should be gained by possessing player and VP tokens by possessed player. Instead, both are gained by possessing player. Log contains text similar to "X gains vp tokens instead" (quoting from memory). I've seen someone says this is also the case with VP tokens from Bishop, so would guess it's the case with all VP tokens and not directly related to Goons.

2) With Inn, when possessing player gains Inn in a possession turn (specifically, when possessed player played University or when possessed player buys Inn), possessing player should have Inn's "on gain" effect activated, but doesn't. Nobody had the "on gain" effect.

[Watno]

1) is not a bug, but a rule change made when Empires was released. All tokens the possessed players gets no go to the possessing player instead.

[Yariv]

Well, I will not argue for ignoring this "errata" though I am quite disappointed. Since clearly there was a decision not to issue any changes (as evident from not adding "may" to Throne Room), i don't see why this errata was needed, instead of simply stating that debt tokens alone go to the possessing player (and possibly changing the future printings of alchemy, and then changing the online rules as well).

Also, in that case I will claim that the site lacks full explanations of the rules. If I can't rely on the rule sheets, even if I have the rule sheets for the boxes of all cards in play, then there must be some source for the rules online.

[Watno]

Actually, Throne Room had "you may" added in the second edition.

The card text of changed cards should be updated online (For example, Possession says "Any cards or tokens they would gain on that turn, you gain instead")

[jsh]

Well, I will not argue for ignoring this "errata" though I am quite disappointed. Since clearly there was a decision not to issue any changes (as evident from not adding "may" to Throne Room), i don't see why this errata was needed, instead of simply stating that debt tokens alone go to the possessing player (and possibly changing the future printings of alchemy, and then changing the online rules as well).

Also, in that case I will claim that the site lacks full explanations of the rules. If I can't rely on the rule sheets, even if I have the rule sheets for the boxes of all cards in play, then there must be some source for the rules online.

It doesn't matter how you feel about it; the rules have changed and the card texts on the client reflect them. It is not the client's or shuffleIt's fault that you aren't familiar with the new rules and wordings! I personally think the changes are for the best. It sucks that a Possession counter is now gone, but let's be real, I don't think there is any way to make Possession games a pleasant experience regardless.

Also, Throne Room does in fact have that errata, and Masquerade has changed to break the pin. There are a few other near-meaningless changes too, like Moneylender being optional.

[Yariv]

TR was changed in the second edition, sure, but there was no "Errata". That's my point exactly, and the reason I'm disappointed with this decision. Also, since clearly there are still different token rules for different tokens (PS tokens go to possessed player), I don't see why the change was needed at all. An update in a new version is not the same thing as an errata - errata changes the formal rules for existing sets, a new version changes the rules for itself.

There is no updated card text for possession as far as I know, so no reason to change card text online. Maybe after the new printing of Alchemy.

As a side note, I did say I will not argue against accepting this errata, meaning I accept that the rules should comply with it, but it should be clear that errata will never be a change to the card text, and so there should be a way to view the actual rules. Physical games come with rules sheets, but in this case the rules sheets themselves are not enough, as none of them contains the errata. A player must be able to find the rules of the game.

[Watno]

I believe the possession errata is in the empires rulebook, might be wrong though. It will for sure have a changed text in future printings, which is already reflected online.

Pirate ships tokens aren't gained, but placed on your mat, sontheyre not affected by the rule change.

[Rabid]

"Possession (from Dominion: Alchemy) now has errata that causes it to give the Possessing player all
tokens (and cards) the Possessed player would get, which includes Debt tokens and VP tokens."

Rule book found here:
http://riograndegames.com/Game/1306-Dominion-Empires

[Yariv]

Indeed, the errata exists. The Issue I have with it is simple, it means that in order to know the rules for a game that consists only of cards from Prosperity and Alchemy, you need to read the Empires rulebook. It used to be the case that the only rules you needed were the general rules for Base and every expansion in the game, plus rules for the cards actually in the game. Now you can have a game where Empires cards are not allowed, and still you need its rulebook, and that's the problem with errata.

Also, this are not the actual rules (as established here). The possessing player would not get Pirate Ship tokens. This rule, as far as I know, doesn't appear in any rulebook, and here's a further problem with errata.

[Emeric]

Nobody gains token from Pirate Ship. The token go from the reserve to the mat !
When you play an island while a possession turn do you put the card in your island mat or in the island mat of you opponent ? it's the same things !

[drsteelhammer]

Indeed, the errata exists. The Issue I have with it is simple, it means that in order to know the rules for a game that consists only of cards from Prosperity and Alchemy, you need to read the Empires rulebook. It used to be the case that the only rules you needed were the general rules for Base and every expansion in the game, plus rules for the cards actually in the game. Now you can have a game where Empires cards are not allowed, and still you need its rulebook, and that's the problem with errata.

Also, this are not the actual rules (as established here). The possessing player would not get Pirate Ship tokens. This rule, as far as I know, doesn't appear in any rulebook, and here's a further problem with errata.

It's ok to be disappointed, the VP interaction led to some interesting games. The problem is that the debt tokens would make Possession very annoying.

Also the way it is now, Bishop-Possession games are a lot more pleasant now

[Yariv]

But debt tokens appear only in Empires. If only debt tokens were gained by the possessor it would require no errata, simply a statement in the Empires rulebook.

In any case, this discussion has wondered way off. This are the rules, and while I'm disappointed of the way the change was made I do not object to the actual rules. There is no apparent bug in Possession + VP tokens, though the Possession + Inn bug still holds.