Resigning Mid-Game: Rant Warning :p

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Starbecca

How do people feel about players resigning mid-game? I had one person ask me if I minded if they resigned because they couldn't catch up. At least the person asked. Most people just suddenly quit. I'm keeping pace with the game, not too slow. I guess I will always view it as being a bad sport when people cut and run but I'd like to hear what others think.

yed

It is ok to resign any time. Resign is a valid option, it is not a quiting. Why play a game, that has already been decided? I do believe, that a lot of people resigns too soon, but it is their strategic mistake, I don't care (I won).

It is not ok to quit and leave you waiting for 4 minutes!

twasa

I agree that a game can be resigned at any time. It is a bit annoying when it happens in the middle of my turn, but then it still is a win and both of us can continue with a next game.

LaLight

I nearly always ask first, this is a matter of policy for me. Though I feel fine about people resigning either. Sometimes it may be disappointing cause you are working on your master-engine, but think about the person in front of you, your engine slowly kills his hope to win with every card played. So, personally, I'm okay with that.

Starbecca

I appreciate getting all this feedback. I will try  :P not to feel so annoyed by those who resign and leave the table. But I think I will still see it as poor sportsmanship and bad etiquette.  Communicating with your opposition about it would be SOOOO much better, would protect your rep and even staying to play again would be respect-worthy. The WORST is when losers resign and leave the table without a word, not even so much as a "gg." It is very hard not to see that as a poor sport. Imagine playing someone in real life who quit every time you started winning. They would quickly be on your list of those you don't want to play with!

Okay. I'll stop ranting now.  ;D

LaLight

Quote from: Starbecca on 17 January 2017, 03:36:28 PM
I appreciate getting all this feedback. I will try  :P not to feel so annoyed by those who resign and leave the table. But I think I will still see it as poor sportsmanship and bad etiquette.  Communicating with your opposition about it would be SOOOO much better, would protect your rep and even staying to play again would be respect-worthy. The WORST is when losers resign and leave the table without a word, not even so much as a "gg." It is very hard not to see that as a poor sport. Imagine playing someone in real life who quit every time you started winning. They would quickly be on your list of those you don't want to play with!

Okay. I'll stop ranting now.  ;D

I can understand you at whole. But here, in online implementation, I guess you need to get used to it... Unfortunately. Also, there are many nice people. I assure you :)

JunkDealer

I'm going to put  on my old codger hat here and say that resigning without asking is just rude.

Imagine you're playing a game in real life and the person doesn't say anything, but just stacks up his cards into a pile, pushes them into the middle and walks away or worse gets up from the table without saying anything and leaves?  These are the equivalent to quitting and resigning without asking first.  It's amazing to me that this kind of etiquette isn't respected.  I will never turn down a request to resign.  I might ask why they want to resign first, but if it's a clear loss I completely understand it.  However, I will not understand someone who can't take the common courtesy to let the other person know what's going on.

I see this as a systemic problem with our online presence.  People just don't take the time to be polite.  It only takes half a minute to do and prevents people from getting the wrong impression.  As a previous user said put yourself in the other person's shoes.... If you just resign and walk away what impression are you leaving that person?  Be polite.  Say hello to the person you're playing with.  Wish them luck.  Tell them it was fun or a good game.  It's only a few keystrokes, but certainly makes the world more polite and human.

hf!
gg!

Old codger hat removed.

yed

I resign and then say "gg".
Then I usually either click Ready or say "I need to go" or "I need a break".

I don't think it is rude to resign without asking.

Mick

I can't find myself getting too upset by this. At least they resigned and didn't just leave and force you to wait. Maybe they had a good reason, and maybe they didn't, but it's not really my place to give (or deny) them "permission" to resign, so I don't see why they should need to ask first.

santamonica811

I'm with the majority here.  It's clearly the custom, so it's just something to get used to.  (I, on the other hand, will always ask, "Okay if I resign?" first.  About 75% of the time, I get no response within a minute, so I go ahead and resign at that point.  The other 25% of the time; people say some version of, "Sure, go ahead."  While it's fun to play our your killer engine, it's really not fun on the other end.  And this is 1000x more so, when there are attacks in play, or where you need to respond during the future-winner's turn (e.g., Masquerade).  I don't mind losing.  I don't mind getting killed from time-to-time.  But I really don't want to have to play a "dead" game for another 7 minutes, with each of her/his turns taking a full minute to cycle through.

So, count me as a vote for, "Good manners to ask first, or at least announce in advance.  But not absolutely required."  :-)

Starbecca

#10
Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that people need my permission to resign when they are losing. I am definitely saying it is rude not to finish a game, just because you are losing. The fact that it is online is no different than it would be if you were sitting across from each other and the person just walked away without a word each time they were losing. It's being an impolite, poor sport in person and no different online. I was hoping that maybe Dominion culture could be developed to embrace good sportsmanship and etiquette. There are plenty of online etiquette concepts that we embrace regularly, LIKE NOT YELLING AT PEOPLE BY USING CAPS.  ;D  I know there will always be times people have to suddenly quit because of an emergency. But under normal circumstances, I'd rather play people who follow through and finish.

Online Dominion will be as good as we make it.

yed

Resigning 2 player game IRL is also ok. It is rude to just walk away. Saying "I resign, good game. Do you want to play another?" is completely ok and polite.

Martin plays Piano

The advantage of bots games is, that the bots can't resign ...
The disadvantage of bots games is, that you can't chat with them ...

The advantage of human games is, that you can chat with somebody ...
The disadvantage of human games is, that somebody can resign ...
The even bigger disadvantage of human games is, that somebody can resign without saying any word ...

Saying nothing, press resign and going away should be stated as a total no-go.

So I will put Starbecca and JunkDealer on my buddy list, and all the others can play in silence with their beloved resigners.

Have fun !
Martin (user name Rachmaninoff)

santamonica811

Quote from: Martin plays Piano on 19 January 2017, 08:43:39 AM
The advantage of bots games is, that the bots can't resign ...
The disadvantage of bots games is, that you can't chat with them ...

The advantage of human games is, that you can chat with somebody ...
The disadvantage of human games is, that somebody can resign ...
The even bigger disadvantage of human games is, that somebody can resign without saying any word ...

Saying nothing, press resign and going away should be stated as a total no-go.

So I will put Starbecca and JunkDealer on my buddy list, and all the others can play in silence with their beloved resigners.

Have fun !
Martin (user name Rachmaninoff)

Martin,
I am not sure why you are being so pissy.  Did you read all of the posts?  Sure does not seem like you read mine.

One of the great features online is that you can avoid people you do not want to play with.  While I am in full agreement with your attitude re resigners (who do it without saying anything), I don't love your approach.  Please add me to your "not welcome" list. 

(But, having said that; I do hope that you enjoy your Dominion play here.  My guess is that, after you pick and choose your playing partners, you will indeed find it a fun time here.)

Martin plays Piano

Hi Josh, be my guest – I am not offended at all.

If it seems so, perhaps you can blame it to my non-native English ... - the last thing I want to have here would be a "no welcome" list due to divergent opinions here in the forum.

Nevertheless, the clear statement from Starbecca ("I was hoping that maybe Dominion culture could be developed to embrace good sportsmanship and etiquette") is for me a much more valuable approach than saying, "Good manners to ask first, or at least announce in advance. But not absolutely required".

I say: it IS absolutely required – we should never allow to see this as a normal behavior. I really want to encourage people to use the in-game-chat for saying hello, some nice words, asking for undo ... and of course, of course for resigns – otherwise one should prefer bots games.

We can't heal the world, and we all have to live with silent resigners or quitters (where is the difference by the way?) – but a stronger commitment by saying "quitters not welcome here" as an unmistakeable community rule could be a nice route to follow.

PS: at least when leaderboards coming up again, I would appreciate penalties for quitters (or thinking positive there should be an extra reward for the winner).

Have fun!
Martin

yed

Yes to penalties for quiters who left you waiting for 4 minutes, but not for resigns.

twasa

A player may quit involuntarily. I was playing a game when we suddenly had a power failure in our area. At least Lord Rattington didn't mind that I had quit, but another player might interpret that as a deliberate quit.

santamonica811

Quote from: Martin plays Piano on 19 January 2017, 11:48:15 AM
Hi Josh, be my guest – I am not offended at all.

If it seems so, perhaps you can blame it to my non-native English ... - the last thing I want to have here would be a "no welcome" list due to divergent opinions here in the forum.

Nevertheless, the clear statement from Starbecca ("I was hoping that maybe Dominion culture could be developed to embrace good sportsmanship and etiquette") is for me a much more valuable approach than saying, "Good manners to ask first, or at least announce in advance. But not absolutely required".

I say: it IS absolutely required – we should never allow to see this as a normal behavior. I really want to encourage people to use the in-game-chat for saying hello, some nice words, asking for undo ... and of course, of course for resigns – otherwise one should prefer bots games.

We can't heal the world, and we all have to live with silent resigners or quitters (where is the difference by the way?) – but a stronger commitment by saying "quitters not welcome here" as an unmistakeable community rule could be a nice route to follow.

PS: at least when leaderboards coming up again, I would appreciate penalties for quitters (or thinking positive there should be an extra reward for the winner).

Have fun!
Martin

Thanks, Martin,
I think you make a fair point.  My only excuse is that Donald Trump will become my president in 2 days, so it's hard to think clearly when you're under a cloud of depression!  :-)

If we are (down-the-road) able to look at statistics for ourselves and other players, I do think it would be great to be able to see the number/ratio of games resigned.  Not sure if anyone has officially made that suggestion.  But I think it's a pretty good one.

jsh

Wanting everyone to follow your own conception of manners on the internet is ambitious to say the least.

I am perfectly fine with wordless resignations and don't care to use pointless greetings and pleasantries. I assume if someone is playing the game they are already there for a good time and "gg" can be a mixed message depending on the context. A lot of players use it in a demeaning fashion, not necessarily in this community but elsewhere.

Wishing your opponent good luck in dominion is just asking for trouble.

I enjoy discussing games with people when I'm not tired, but I'm not one for scripted language.

JunkDealer

Quote from: jsh on 19 January 2017, 05:27:59 PM
Wishing your opponent good luck in dominion is just asking for trouble.

Why is this asking for trouble?  No matter your skill level there is luck involved in this game.  Yes, it is mitigated luck, but there is still luck.  So how is wishing someone good luck asking for trouble?

Quote from: jsh on 19 January 2017, 05:27:59 PM
I enjoy discussing games with people when I'm not tired, but I'm not one for scripted language.

We will have to agree to disagree here.  Part of what makes human interaction pleasurable are pleasantries.  Perhaps this is the Canadian in me speaking, but I honestly feel joy when I wish the stranger I'm passing in the street a good morning and I feel joy when someone does the same to me.  Even when we greet friends (both new and close)  "How are you doing?" is a pleasantry.  The person who doesn't know me well will probably respond with "Fine and how are you?"  The person who knows me well may respond "Well actually I'm having a rough day" and we may delve into a more in depth conversation.  How we respond to each other makes us human and the world a better place. 

Yes, there will always be people who don't respond in kind or who mean to hurt/harm with their comments.  However, to not engage can be just as hurtful.  Scripted language is how we start interactions and most discussions.  It's how we grow our friendships and relationships.  It's even how we engage on a regular basis.  Don't under estimate scripted language; it's important.  I'd encourage you to try and monitor every word you say in a day and analyze how much of it is "scripted".  I think you might be surprised by how much of our world is scripted and how that makes us more humane and kinder.

That's all I'm really saying here.  A few keystrokes makes the world a kinder place.  What's wrong with that?  Is it so burdensome on you to type "Hi",  "You've clearly beat me I'm going to resign",  "Gotta run... Sorry to leave",  or some other pleasantry?  I'm a firm believer of you get what you give.  Take the time to respect your other player.  The time they are giving to you.  The experience they are sharing with you.

I'll continue to try not to be annoyed by the silent players, perhaps language is a barrier for them, but if you can, be kind and spend the 5 seconds to type a message.

jsh

If you wish your opponent luck and they open 5/2 on a good kingdom for it, I think you dug your own grave to some extent. I'm not a superstitious person, granted, but I'm still not going to lie and say I want the person I'm trying to beat to have good fortune.

Re: pleasantries, whatever, man. It's the internet. It doesn't bother me when people greet me (why would it?), but I'm under no social obligation to return the gesture. It might make me seem like a jerk to that person, but if they feel that strongly about this one instance I question how they function on a day to day basis when every single minor expectation isn't met. I also don't say hi to every stranger I pass on the street. And neither does everyone I pass say hi to me. I don't think this has anything to do with whether someone is from Canada or not. It's simply an unrealistic expectation. Small talk with people I don't know is a use of my time that I rarely indulge in.

twasa

I'm with jsh here. I actually find the "gl" at the beginning of a game strange. I have had a few instances lately of better rated players ranting at me for daring to win a game. I'm glad they didn't wish for my good luck at the start of the game.

JunkDealer

Quote from: twasa on 19 January 2017, 07:28:22 PM
I'm with jsh here. I actually find the "gl" at the beginning of a game strange. I have had a few instances lately of better rated players ranting at me for daring to win a game. I'm glad they didn't wish for my good luck at the start of the game.

I wonder if the assumption here is that by wishing someone else good fortune you're giving up your own?  I personally want all players to have good luck (including me!).  If one person has good luck and the other bad, then it ends up being lopsided and not very enjoyable.  If everyone has bad luck you get a slow game with slow progression which is equally unpleasant.  If everyone has good luck you all get good hands, runs, etc and it makes for a quick and exciting game.  Keep in mind I'm not saying "I hope you win."  That would be silly.  Obviously I'm hoping I win, but I hope you have good luck too so that we get an interesting game.

As far as people ranting at you for daring to win... Well that's just poor gamesmanship.  I wouldn't want to play someone like that.  I'm sorry there are people like that here and I hope to avoid them in gameplay.


twasa

I do not wish for better luck for either me or my opponent. I'd try to do the best I can and expect they'd as well and luck may play a part or not. If it does, it really doesn't matter in the long run.

Starbecca

I'm going to stay away from the "small talk" discussion and head back to resigning mid-game without a word.

Dominion is a society (the aggregate of people operating together in a more or less ordered community; an organization or club formed for a particular purpose or activity). Simple truth: in societies, our actions do not occur in a vacuum, they make an impact on others. Etiquette considerations (standards for making things go more smoothly) do not seem unreasonable in a society. The value of etiquette is easily argued, in business, families, online communities, etc. Some people see the value more than others and this is sometimes a result of upbringing or a result of maturation but I readily admit that some people will continue not caring what others think or not caring about the niceties of society for their entire lives. If it doesn't help them then that will be all that matters.

I ascribe to etiquette matters as an element of ethics. If possible, I want things to "go more smoothly." To me, it seems good/right/moral to want to generate good will. I will not take this too far and I always am interested to hear what others think even though I cannot be entirely responsible for what others think (they have to own part of that).

As part of the Dominion community/society, I stand resolved that I'd like to see it be a friendly and considerate competitive arena. To that end, I hope that etiquette is adhered to more often than not. Just as most of us feel the burden to not play too slowly because it can be annoying, I hope people will consider the possibility of playing through or commenting, rather than resigning without a word, if for no other reason than to make online Dominion "go more smoothly." It only takes a few seconds to generate that good will. I know, some will not be willing but I hope many will.

twasa

Resigning mid-game without a word is conceding the game. It adequately communicates your thoughts about the game so far and its likely ending. I just think the additional etiquette you'd like to see, is asking too much. What do you want your opponent to do more than conceding?

twasa

I think I should get out of here, I'm bordering on https://xkcd.com/386/

Martin plays Piano

@twasa:
Being polite is like asking too much ??
Investing 2-3 nice words in the chat is asking too much ??

Hey, we are all human beings, and most of them want to chat and to socialize beyond the pure game as part of a living community – please don't expect that all players here are only acting like dumb parkometers – what a terrible world !!

SkyHard

Quote from: Martin plays Piano on 19 January 2017, 09:27:07 PM
Hey, we are all human beings, and most of them want to chat and to socialize beyond the pure game as part of a living community – please don't expect that all players here are only acting like dumb parkometers – what a terrible world !!

I think there are two kind of players here: the hardcore players who only want to play and win and the casual player (like me) who want to enjoy the play. The former won't mind the resign because they achieved their goal (winning). The later however...

I first played Dominion only in the Brettspielwelt and there - as a general rule - is no resign button. As being used to no resign I don't really like it if my opponent resigns without a word (no greeting is strange too...).

twasa

Quote from: Martin plays Piano on 19 January 2017, 09:27:07 PM
@twasa:
Being polite is like asking too much ??

Martin, I always let the other player know that I'm conceding before I do and I only do it on my own turn. I don't expect others to do that though. A wordless resignation at any time in the game doesn't bother me.

Ingix

Quote from: Martin plays Piano on 19 January 2017, 09:27:07 PM
@twasa:
Being polite is like asking too much ??
Investing 2-3 nice words in the chat is asking too much ??

Hey, we are all human beings, and most of them want to chat and to socialize beyond the pure game as part of a living community – please don't expect that all players here are only acting like dumb parkometers – what a terrible world !!

I've found out over the years that I play games mostly to socialize with friends. We talk about the game and other things while we play, as probably any gaming group. However, like probably most people, I can easily talk and do other things at the same time. It takes a considerable bigger amount of time and mental capacity for me to type (instead of talking) and do other things at the same time, especially if the other things are interacting with the game client.

That's why I consider the chat feature to be just appropriate for communicating very short status things like "Baby woke up, need to go" or "Need 3 min break". If I want to use the chat to start an actual discussion, about the game or something else ("smalltalk"), this would take up much more time and energy than actually playing the game.

When I first introduced a seasoned Dominion player (with no subscription) to the new online implementation, we used Skype to talk to each other. We fell into the pitfall of the game not showing any kingdom cards, which was caused by him not having any cards marked "familiar". We figured it out eventually, because I could talk to him and direct him to certain options which I guessed could be the problem. If I had to type that in, wait for him to respond, etc. this would have taken much longer than the 15 min it took us to figure out.

Later, when we were in the game, we talked about it, when we got a lucky draw etc., just like we do when we play IRL. He's a better player than me, so I'm very interested in hearing his opinions. And nothing is better than just taking 2seconds verbally to ask on some question that comes up in the game, than to take 15 seconds to type into the chat to formulate the same question. Maybe he is also asking/saying something at the same time. Verbally, this does not happen very often and it is easily solved, but in a chat (I'm not an experienced chatter, so there may be some well known things to do when this comes up)?

So while I agree that smalltalk is an important stepping stone to real conversation with strangers, the problem I have with chat in this Dominion client is that it isn't (in my opinion) good for anything but very short smalltalk, as a serious conversation takes too much time (at least for me). I can then understand that people do not like to be told that using some "formulaic" greetings are required, at least when they do not want to be in breach of an etiquette.

Panoptikus

I think it is very important to differentiate resigning from quitting (just disconnecting, doing nothing for minutes...). The latter (if it does happen on purpose) is not acceptable and I would blacklist any player who does behave that way. Resigning is a valid option. It is an option the interface offers (just like buying cards). It is a move within the context of the game. It is IMO neither impolite to buy a torturer nor to click resign. Hitting the resign button communicates: "I am convinced that I am no longer able to win this game (whatever the reasons may be: worse deck, inability to get enough victory point, boss calling). I congratulate you to your victory". I don't need to express this in the chat. The intent is clear. (The intent of buying a torturer is also clear: "I want to torture you ;-)").

My opinion is: it is absolutely ok to resign anytime - some might prefer to explain themselves, but I do not expect them to do this.

HinghamtoHingham

Sometimes people disappear because RL intervenes or computer glitches occur. I think its nice to be forgiving

Hertz Doughnut

Quote from: Martin plays Piano on 19 January 2017, 11:48:15 AM
I say: it IS absolutely required – we should never allow to see this as a normal behavior. I really want to encourage people to use the in-game-chat for saying hello, some nice words, asking for undo ... and of course, of course for resigns – otherwise one should prefer bots games.

We can't heal the world, and we all have to live with silent resigners or quitters (where is the difference by the way?) – but a stronger commitment by saying "quitters not welcome here" as an unmistakeable community rule could be a nice route to follow.

I definitely agree with your sentiment, C#, and as you know, we've had some very pleasurable chats in our games.  (I think it was the first time I've ever had a Chopin vs Beethoven discussion during any online contest...)

However, one thing to be aware of, is that when I play on my tablet, chat is painfully difficult.  When I bring up the keyboard, it takes a couple seconds, and covers the entire screen.  I can't see the letters I'm typing, until I first press "enter" and then press the "keyboard disappear" button.  Then (sometimes) the keyboard bugs and goes down, but then pops back up again.  Once the keyboard is finally down, I have to touch and scroll the chat box to the bottom to see what I've written... which sometimes opens up the keyboard again (and scrolls the chat box back to the top).  And then there's usually a bunch of typos, because tablet keyboards are like that.

When I try to type a "gg" after a game, my opponent has usually left the table by the time I hit enter.  When I try to type "gl hf" at the beginning of a game, it makes my opening turns much longer than necessary.  Altogether it just isn't worth it.  Asking for permission to resign is a bridge too far for that interface...

So I can imagine that anyone playing "Tablet Hertz Doughnut" thinks I'm an aloof misanthrope.  While anyone playing "PC Hertz Doughnut" (hopefully) thinks I'm a swell chap with impeccable sportsmanship.

Kind regards,
HD

ElisabetK

I usually play with bots but decided I had time to play a complete game with a real person, so I tried the "good match". Three times in a row I got matched with the same person, who left the table almost immediately.

If I could ban that ****, I would. I don't mind if he or she doesn't want to play with me or with that set of cards for whatever reason, but if you choose to be matched you should play the game. Just my (frustrated) opinion.


Altamont

Eh. I'm a repeat-offender mid-game resigner, mainly because there is no consequence for resigning at the moment. When the scoreboard becomes active, I'm sure we'll be getting less mid-game silent resigns.

mark1878

Altamont - when do you resign.

If because you think you have lost - well you have the penalty anyway.

What penalty should there be otherwise

I voted for resign with message - but as I got into playing more often I will resign without a message if I am losing heavily and if the other player is basically doing the same each round, if he has more complex things I would watch and hopefully learn.

If RL intervenes I would leave a message

MaartenRobinson

I agree with majority.  Converse ...say that you concede ... that's what gladiators used to do ...although, they usually died after that.  There are times, however, when the system shuts off the communication facility and leaves you with no other option, than to resign.

I just won a game ...about 30mins ago ... and was left completely hanging to the extent that I then had to resign to end the game ...the other player won because I resigned, although had more points and the provinces were all gone etc ... not happy