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Author Topic: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens  (Read 942 times)

Offline AdamH

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Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« on: 24 January 2017, 01:47:14 AM »
When I play Butcher, I am presented with a convenient interface that allows me to just click on the card I want to gain instead of manually spending coin tokens. However, when Possessing my opponent I'd like to be able to just spend all of their coin tokens whenever I play Butcher and there is no way to do this.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #1 on: 24 January 2017, 09:18:12 AM »
This seems to be a case of "not implementing the full rules because the way Butcher is handled is just a much better interface than what was used at Making Fun" and nobody would want to overspend on purpose for their own Butcher (as I did a few times on Making Fun when I did not account for cost reductions or simply had a calculation error).

Strategically, you should be able to spend all of the possessed player's coin tokens at the start of his buy phase, even if you did not play a Butcher during the possessed turn.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #2 on: 24 January 2017, 12:52:42 PM »
Over in the Crown logic thread I had lots of people telling me that it was important to offer all legal options, even if they are not smart to do in-game and make the interface much worse. If that's something that's important, then it should be done here as well.

Don't get me wrong, I like the current interface as well.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #3 on: 24 January 2017, 06:43:21 PM »
It's interesting that I thought of that thread as well, just the other way around: Not thinking of even one case might 'ruin' (aka: not make it totally rules conformant) an otherwise good idea.

Offline LaLight

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #4 on: 25 January 2017, 11:26:34 AM »
The implementation of Butcher as it is is not a bug. This is working exactly as intended. As was mentioned earlier, if you want to spend all your opponents coin tokens, you may as well do it in the beginning of a Buy phase.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #5 on: 25 January 2017, 01:22:15 PM »
Just so we're clear, by this logic it's completely OK to cut corners on Crown where you disallow legal options that are just bad in every single case.

If that's the design philosophy that the developers are taking, it's fine with me (I actually prefer it) but then I hope it's consistently applied. Meaning that I hope Crown ends up with a better interface than it has now by using this.

Oh yeah, and if there's ever a card in the future that makes this matter, blah blah blah. This argument has been had already

Offline Chris is me

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #6 on: 25 January 2017, 05:25:28 PM »
First I want to start off by saying I agree that Butcher should have the interface to do this if you want to, eventually. But this is different than Crown and thus doesn't need to be a real priority at all.

Crown's case isn't an example of something that literally never matters implemented because it is technically possible - the Crown case absolutely can matter in a game with the +Card token. So it has to be possible because, literally, right now, you can play a game where you have to do that.

Right now, the case of using Butcher instead of the Buy phase as your mechanism for spending all the Coin tokens literally never matters - it's currently not possible to play a turn without any Buy phase whatsoever (even if you can't buy cards), so you will always have an opportunity in a Possessed turn to do what you are suggesting. So it isn't a thing that immediately needs to be fixed.

Crown still should be fixed by the way with that "action phase / buy phase" button or warning - we just clearly need the Action phase thing to be possible, because it is actually possible for it to matter in games playable right now, unlike this Butcher thing.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #7 on: 25 January 2017, 05:34:30 PM »
Well this isn't the Crown thread, so I'm not going to respond to this other than to say that I disagree with you.

And we've been through it all several times in the Crown thread. I've made my point there too so I'm not really interested in responding there either.

If the devs decide they want to fix this, they will have put this into their backlog. This thread has served its purpose. Whether or not they fix this particular thing, I don't really have a preference.

Offline Stef

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #8 on: 25 January 2017, 06:00:43 PM »
We have no plans to change Butcher.

We have no plans to change Crown either.

However, two features are planned that will improve the Crown experience:
1) we will add autoplay at some point. At that point Crown will get an autoplay "automatically end my action phase when the only actions I have in hand are Crowns" which will by default be on. People can decide to turn it off in individual games if that's what they want.
2) we will add an undo-mode that automatically grants undo when there is no new info. That mode will also be the default.

Offline yed

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #9 on: 25 January 2017, 06:33:47 PM »
However, two features are planned that will improve the Crown experience:
1) we will add autoplay at some point. At that point Crown will get an autoplay "automatically end my action phase when the only actions I have in hand are Crowns" which will by default be on. People can decide to turn it off in individual games if that's what they want.
2) we will add an undo-mode that automatically grants undo when there is no new info. That mode will also be the default.
I like this solution :)

Offline AdamH

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #10 on: 25 January 2017, 06:58:30 PM »
However, two features are planned that will improve the Crown experience:
1) we will add autoplay at some point. At that point Crown will get an autoplay "automatically end my action phase when the only actions I have in hand are Crowns" which will by default be on. People can decide to turn it off in individual games if that's what they want.
2) we will add an undo-mode that automatically grants undo when there is no new info. That mode will also be the default.
I like this solution :)

Offline randomjoyz

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #11 on: 25 January 2017, 08:20:01 PM »
Is it an official rule that coins and treasures can't be played after buying something once? (I'm just wondering, I see the topic has been resolved.)

Offline Watno

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Re: Butcher doesn't allow me to overpay with Coin Tokens
« Reply #12 on: 25 January 2017, 08:28:57 PM »
yes