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Author Topic: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands  (Read 4018 times)

Offline AdamH

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #15 on: 31 January 2017, 03:53:36 AM »
Having the option would be better than not having the option, I don't dispute that.

The thing is, it's a variant. If you add in this variant, why not add in the next variant? You could spend all day doing this and the devs have better things to do. Maybe they could charge money for them but I certainly wouldn't pay for that.

I had suggested somewhere else that it could be done in a mod or some kind of extension. I think that's a great idea. But if I'm subscribing to this service, I'd rather the devs work on every possible tweak and optimization to the game as the designer intended rather than worry about which variants are going to get worked on.

I guess by this same logic VP counter shouldn't be implemented, and yeah I wish that were the case. Unfortunately, it was. I can't really defend that, but this rationale is why I don't think it's a good idea for this option to be part of the official product.

Offline Mick

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #16 on: 31 January 2017, 08:46:27 AM »
Game variants cannot be added while the lack of any kind of table sorting or filtering exists. VP counters is already enough of a travesty. The developers have a lot of more important things on their plate.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #17 on: 31 January 2017, 12:01:37 PM »
But you can't wash away the stigma of a lopsided match when there are starting inequalities.  Every single poster in this thread acknowledges that that stigma is there.
I don't know what you even mean by "stigma," and certainly don't acknowledge it. I recommend not constructing sentences like "Every single poster in this thread acknowledges..." Speak for yourself! We'll speak for ourselves.

The first shuffle inequalities are immediately followed by the second shuffle inequalities. It's a game with shuffling.

I remain 100% against identical starting hands. I also have a good, lucky feeling that I can kill this potential feature, being me. I do not recommend devoting a lot of time to trying to get it.

Offline ffejselur

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #18 on: 31 January 2017, 04:58:38 PM »
 DXV: Best...Post...Ever!!! :) ;) :D ;D

I recommend not constructing sentences like "Every single poster in this thread acknowledges..." Speak for yourself! We'll speak for ourselves.
Love the anti-narcissism recommendation! Hope some people are paying attention.

I also have a good, lucky feeling that I can kill this potential feature, being me.
Great. Now do you think you could kill my headache, being you? That would be awesome!

Offline Hertz Doughnut

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #19 on: 31 January 2017, 06:41:02 PM »
I don't know what you even mean by "stigma," and certainly don't acknowledge it.

By "stigma" I meant a perceived mark of distinction, and that was probably a poor word choice on my part.  People notice when their games start 5/2 vs 4/3.  People feel that it's a starting inequality where one side has a disadvantage.  Sometimes, they objectively do have a disadvantage.

You haven't used the word "stigma", but I'm pretty sure we agree that there is a distinction (or the perception of a distinction) of starting disadvantage in games of 5/2 vs 4/3.

I would appreciate it if we addressed the salient points of my last post.  What's the harm in letting this be an option for private, friends-only tables?

Kind regards,
HD

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #20 on: 01 February 2017, 12:12:44 AM »
You haven't used the word "stigma", but I'm pretty sure we agree that there is a distinction (or the perception of a distinction) of starting disadvantage in games of 5/2 vs 4/3.
Sometimes you get an advantage from opening 5/2 or 4/3 or 3/4 or 2/5. This is immediately followed by, sometimes you get an advantage from shuffling your cards after turn 2 so that there's one in each hand when you want that, or both together on turn 3 when you want that, or by not shuffling yours to the bottom while your opponents do. There is an endless parade of advantages from shuffling; the first shuffle is not noteworthy here. It's not even the most significant shuffle.

Similarly I do not think it makes sense in King of Tokyo or Catan or Yahtzee to get to decide what your first roll is, and then roll randomly from that point on.

I would appreciate it if we addressed the salient points of my last post.  What's the harm in letting this be an option for private, friends-only tables?
You can produce to-you-salient points endlessly; I only have so much time to talk to you about this feature I know I'm vetoing.

As always I encourage everyone to play whatever variants they want in real life. It is not possibly worth any effort to have this feature online now. If 3 years from now there's time to do such things, at that point I can devote more effort to considering if there's some limitation that does the trick for me.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #21 on: 01 February 2017, 01:18:50 AM »
It's not even the most significant shuffle.

Has someone attempted this analysis over at f.ds? I've always felt that the second shuffle (usually between turns 2 and 3) was the most significant one, but that's just my intuition.

Offline Funhaver

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #22 on: 01 February 2017, 01:30:04 AM »
I get that shuffle luck is inevitable. But can't we at least start each game on equal footing?
If that's how you want to think of it, then no. You can't.
Haha thanks for your concern! :D The request is actually for the Shuffle iT developers (y'all are reading this thread, right?).

It's obviously a matter of opinion whether the game is more fun with Identical Starting Hands or Variable Starting Hands. Some prefer the fairness of ISH, whereas others prefer the variety of VSH.

Is there an objective way to determine what percentage of online Dominion players prefers one method over the other (or more likely, doesn't care at all)? I feel as if a poll in this thread would have too small a sample size to be informative.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #23 on: 01 February 2017, 02:21:56 AM »
Haha thanks for your concern! :D The request is actually for the Shuffle iT developers (y'all are reading this thread, right?).
I'm there you for you, ha ha!

You may feel like you're just talking to Shuffle iT, and why would I even be involved, but I bet I can just shoot down this idea, because I made the game, and ultimately hold the rights. I won't need to threaten Shuffle iT with threatening RGG; everyone will want to get along and be friendly, and they will just not put in work on this feature that I don't want.

Offline Funhaver

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #24 on: 01 February 2017, 03:28:06 AM »
Haha thanks for your concern! :D The request is actually for the Shuffle iT developers (y'all are reading this thread, right?).
I'm there you for you, ha ha!

You may feel like you're just talking to Shuffle iT, and why would I even be involved, but I bet I can just shoot down this idea, because I made the game, and ultimately hold the rights. I won't need to threaten Shuffle iT with threatening RGG; everyone will want to get along and be friendly, and they will just not put in work on this feature that I don't want.
Yes, really fun game btw!!! I love the updates you made to the Base and Intrigue sets. I will miss Scout... but only in my heart, not in my deck.

It must get tiresome having people tell you how to improve something you created. You do all the design, all the playtesting, all the legal stuff involved with publishing... like you're the little red hen, and then the rest of us barnyard animals just quack about how players should have identical starting hands and ties should always go to the latter player. Just know that we wouldn't do it if we didn't love it!

Well, I wouldn't. But I can only quack for myself. :)

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #25 on: 01 February 2017, 07:45:18 PM »
Haha thanks for your concern! :D The request is actually for the Shuffle iT developers (y'all are reading this thread, right?).
I'm there you for you, ha ha!

You may feel like you're just talking to Shuffle iT, and why would I even be involved, but I bet I can just shoot down this idea, because I made the game, and ultimately hold the rights. I won't need to threaten Shuffle iT with threatening RGG; everyone will want to get along and be friendly, and they will just not put in work on this feature that I don't want.

I have to admit that I find your reaction puzzling.  All you had was one guy say, "Hey, let's add an option to the game."  You've been pretty polite in your responses, but--at the same time--dismissive of the concept of making changes that others want (and that you, personally, do not like). 

To move from this specific case to an abstract hypothetical . . . if there was some option that 90% of the players wanted, but you thought was silly/unwise, would you adopt that option?  What if 95% of the people wanted it?  Or 99.x% wanted it?

You obviously are open to the idea of changing Dominion around the edges . . . after all, you have retired some cards and swapped in new cards.  And now I'm putting on my marketing/PR hat:  At some point, if you are unwilling to adopt changes that the vast vast majority of players want; then they will say, "Why pay 25-33%, each year!!, for what it costs to buy real-life versions of the entire expansion + base set?  I'll just buy the games and play in real life with my friends."

(I am smiling, imagining the scene centuries ago, as the inventor of chess said, "Wait.  People want to add a piece that can hop over other pieces?  And can move in one direction AND THEN in a second direction, on the same move?!?!???  That's crazy talk!") 

Wisdom of the masses, and all that. 

Getting back to this actual specific topic.  I love the randomness of the shuffle and would hate for the rules to be changed to mandate identical first/second hands.  But the OP's suggestion was--to my mind--an interesting idea to try out . . . I admit to being complete bemused as to why you are so doggedly against having it as an option on this site.

And of course, I recognize that my free advice is worth what you paid for it.  :-)

Offline Hertz Doughnut

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #26 on: 01 February 2017, 08:33:32 PM »
[Post removed by author on 2/2/2017]

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #27 on: 01 February 2017, 08:38:11 PM »
You may feel like you're just talking to Shuffle iT, and why would I even be involved, but I bet I can just shoot down this idea, because I made the game, and ultimately hold the rights. I won't need to threaten Shuffle iT with threatening RGG; everyone will want to get along and be friendly, and they will just not put in work on this feature that I don't want.
MOD EDIT: Quote removed as well.

Heh.  Okay, that's a slightly more extreme way of restating what I said.  But, it's also a lot funnier, so props for that.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #28 on: 01 February 2017, 10:45:34 PM »
You've been pretty polite in your responses, but--at the same time--dismissive of the concept of making changes that others want (and that you, personally, do not like). 
I am not dismissive of making changes that others want that I don't. For example I didn't want the VP counter. I am dismissing this particular feature. Do not conflate that with everything ever!

To move from this specific case to an abstract hypothetical . . . if there was some option that 90% of the players wanted, but you thought was silly/unwise, would you adopt that option?  What if 95% of the people wanted it?  Or 99.x% wanted it?
Again enough people wanted the VP counter that there it is.

At some point, if you are unwilling to adopt changes that the vast vast majority of players want; then they will say, "Why pay 25-33%, each year!!, for what it costs to buy real-life versions of the entire expansion + base set?  I'll just buy the games and play in real life with my friends."
Do not confuse "I veto identical starting hands" with anything else. It's not all things ever, it's one specific thing.

I admit to being complete bemused as to why you are so doggedly against having it as an option on this site.
I have been over how I believe this feature would make the game worse for the players not specifically interested in it.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Table Checkbox - Identical starting hands
« Reply #29 on: 01 February 2017, 10:50:13 PM »
You may feel like you're just talking to Shuffle iT, and why would I even be involved, but I bet I can just shoot down this idea, because I made the game, and ultimately hold the rights. I won't need to threaten Shuffle iT with threatening RGG; everyone will want to get along and be friendly, and they will just not put in work on this feature that I don't want.

Quote removed as well
- You say "the fans" as if everyone is clamoring for this thing you personally want.
- You say "insignificant amount of work" when it isn't possibly insignificant.
- I disagree on the % that will like the game more, and the % that will like it less.
- In fact I said flat out to you that I could consider the case of limiting it to friends or whatever, once there is actually time to do things like this.

So I mean, man, if you need to think of that as me giving everyone the finger, well there's no talking to you. I'm not going to reject your bad feature out of spite; I reject it though, and no amount of telling me how awful I am will change that, somehow.

Mods, please close the thread!