Table checkbox - First 2 turns blind-reveal

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twasa

We all know that there is some component of luck in Dominion and that there is some advantage to being the first player. I really prefer the normal game rules of alternating (in 2p games) to mitigate that, instead of house rules. We're naturally welcome to play with any rule when playing irl, but online I'd rather that normal rules apply.

Cave-O-Sapien

This is an interesting variant idea, and maybe at some point the Shuffle iT to-do list will get small enough that a suite of variants could be developed and implemented. I think that would also require a distinction between "ranked" and "friendly" games, since I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a ranked match with such a variant.

AdamH

Quote from: Icehawk78 on 26 January 2017, 06:47:40 PM
have self-stacking of starting hands. I've played a few tournaments where this is done,

...

Typically the way I've seen this done is that the kingdom is revealed, then each player is allowed to secretly arrange their starting hands however they'd like.

Hey brah <3

The tournaments he's referring to are tournaments that I've run. This is a rule I stole from another guy who uses it in his own tournaments, and after playing and running several IRL tournaments that use this rule, I like it and I'm going to continue to use it.

Why? Well, because it makes people feel better. One of the most visible sources of luck in Dominion is a 5/2 opening with a power five out there. It's true that this can put one player at a huge advantage and can sometimes be game-decisive in games where the players are roughly equal in skill. I don't want someone to walk away from my tournament feeling all salty because they were screwed out of ACTUAL MONEY (store credit) because their opponent got a lucky 5/2. It's an easy and visible thing I can do to tell people that I'm trying my best to run my tournaments in a way that emphasizes skill over luck.

It's for this same reason that I don't put Swindler, Urchin, Possession, and a few other cards in any of the kingdoms I use -- these are visible things that can cause one player to get screwed and feel bad, and my objective is for the people at my tournaments to have fun.

Do I actually belive that I'm reducing the effect of luck in my tournaments by a signifcant amount? Absolutely not. There's still a ton of luck in Dominion and the only way to get rid of it all would be to allow players to stack their decks every time they shuffle, which is not happening in my tournaments.

The argument that anything like this increases the skill component of the game or decreases the luck component just doesn't really fly with me. This effect is so small it's probably negligible. All it does is makes people feel better. Sure, there's value in that, but like, different house rules are gonna make people feel better than other ones. How will the devs know which ones to implement?

I kinda thought that the API that's on their list would allow people to make their own mods that could do this kind of stuff. If you want to play your variant online bad enough to write a mod that does it for you, go ahead. This frees up the devs to work on things that everyone will care about.

So in my opinion, this means that VP counter, options for random kingdom selection (always include a village, never include Black Market, etc.), identical starting hands, this, anything else that's not exactly what the rulebook says; should be left to these APIs. And maybe the more popular ones can be implemented by the devs with the default option being that they are disabled.

Mick

It seems ridiculous to me that you'd want to reduce player interaction. The most boring games are the ones where you have no reason to care what your opponents are buying.

Icehawk78

Quote from: AdamH on 26 January 2017, 07:48:24 PM
Hey brah <3

The tournaments he's referring to are tournaments that I've run. This is a rule I stole from another guy who uses it in his own tournaments, and after playing and running several IRL tournaments that use this rule, I like it and I'm going to continue to use it.

Hi!

Quote from: AdamH on 26 January 2017, 07:48:24 PMI kinda thought that the API that's on their list would allow people to make their own mods that could do this kind of stuff. If you want to play your variant online bad enough to write a mod that does it for you, go ahead. This frees up the devs to work on things that everyone will care about.

So in my opinion, this means that VP counter, options for random kingdom selection (always include a village, never include Black Market, etc.), identical starting hands, this, anything else that's not exactly what the rulebook says; should be left to these APIs. And maybe the more popular ones can be implemented by the devs with the default option being that they are disabled.

Some of these things are actually available right now. Variants of kingdom selection are already things I've looked into including with my mods and are definitely doable right now (including the 10 + player_count, everyone veto 1) as long as everyone is using the same mod or the mod supports chat interpretation.

LastFootnote

Quote from: Hertz Doughnut on 26 January 2017, 06:40:48 PMThat's a good point.  I can see how Blind-Reveal would be detrimental in your Sea Hag/Young Witch scenarios.  But taking into account all Dominion kingdoms, I still prefer Blind-Reveal.
I gave two examples. That doesn't mean those are the only two situations in which seeing what your opponent does matters. It frequently matters, and maybe you'd see that if you played games without Blind-Reveal.

And I don't care what you prefer. Maybe I prefer to play Dominion with infinite Actions. That doesn't mean I'm going to try to get Shuffle iT to implement it.

Quote from: Hertz Doughnut on 26 January 2017, 06:40:48 PMI'm just requesting an option, not forcing you to play with it.
Huh, that's what they said about the VP counter. And lo and behold, now I am forced to play with it.

Icehawk78

Quote from: LastFootnote on 26 January 2017, 08:06:45 PMAnd I don't care what you prefer. Maybe I prefer to play Dominion with infinite Actions. That doesn't mean I'm going to try to get Shuffle iT to implement it.

Lucky for you, Donald X. implemented that for you as a Champion.  ;D

Quote from: LastFootnote on 26 January 2017, 08:06:45 PMHuh, that's what they said about the VP counter. And lo and behold, now I am forced to play with it.

You are able to turn that off, though admittedly the table settings aren't sticky (yet - I'm working on adding that currently in my plugin).

Donald X.

I am against this.

This is just uh nightmarish. It looks like it will make the game worse, while being way way too much work to get working correctly.

You and your friend can decide on your opening buys before making them, say "ready?" and then stick with your choices. No option necessary.

Hertz Doughnut

Thanks everyone for all the input.  I think I now agree with the majority that this option is more trouble than it's worth.

I really liked the line of reasoning that the 2nd player can mitigate the inherent 2nd-turn disadvantage by reacting to Player 1's purchases.

I also think that splitting the community into players who insist on Blind-Reveal and those who oppose it will cause chaos in online matchmaking.

Thanks for the consideration.

Kind regards,
HD

allanfieldhouse

Yay, everyone's happy!

I think the real argument against this idea is the "no variants" argument (and I guess the VP counter doesn't count as a variant because it's technically possible to count it yourself). It doesn't really matter if this specific variant is an improvement or not.

Maybe a few years down the road when they've run out of improvements to make, they can start adding optional variants in. That's fine...I mean, if you literally don't have any other development to do...might as well.


Quote from: AdamH on 26 January 2017, 07:48:24 PM
There's still a ton of luck in Dominion and the only way to get rid of it all would be to allow players to stack their decks every time they shuffle, which is not happening in my tournaments.

$5 Terminal Duration - The next time you shuffle, you may order your cards however you wish.

Slowest game ever.

AdamH

Quote from: allanfieldhouse on 28 January 2017, 04:11:47 PM
I guess the VP counter doesn't count as a variant because it's technically possible to count it yourself

VP counter is a variant. By the rules of the game you're not allowed to use any external sources to track information about the game. The reason they have implemented it would be because it's such a popular variant, I guess.

The default setting for VP counter should be off, and it should always be disabled 100% of the time no matter what in games with more than 2 players and Masquerade, regardless of the preferences of individual players.

allanfieldhouse

Quote from: AdamH on 29 January 2017, 03:46:05 PM
[VP counter] should always be disabled 100% of the time no matter what in games with more than 2 players and Masquerade

Ha, I'd never thought of that! The counter would definitely reveal info that shouldn't have been revealed.