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Overlord/BoM/trash

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werothegreat

Add another bug to the Overlord-as-BoM pile.  Was trying to see if an Overlord in the trash emulating a Band of Misfits could emulate an Engineer (current Dominion Online implementation - it can't), and I ended up picking Lurker for Overlord-as-BoM to play, to gain itself out of the trash, which it did.  When I next tried to play that Overlord, it automatically played itself as a Band of Misfits as a Lurker, but stayed in my hand.

#891163 on tokyo

santamonica811

Quote from: werothegreat on 02 February 2017, 05:12:35 AM
Add another bug to the Overlord-as-BoM pile.  Was trying to see if an Overlord in the trash emulating a Band of Misfits could emulate an Engineer (current Dominion Online implementation - it can't), and I ended up picking Lurker for Overlord-as-BoM to play, to gain itself out of the trash, which it did.  When I next tried to play that Overlord, it automatically played itself as a Band of Misfits as a Lurker, but stayed in my hand.

#891163 on tokyo

Sheesh.  Soon, BoM/tavern mat will be as complicated and confusing as Possession, or what happens when a possessed player plays Possession, or a Kings Court-Possession then possesses . . .   (my head is beginning to hurt!)   :-)

Ingix

werothegreat, could you explain again what happened? How did the Overlord get into the trash and why was it trying to doing something there?

Overlord as BoM (in play) should not be able to copy an Engineer, as the Engineer's cost of 4 debt is not "costing less than it", because the current cost of that Overlord/BoM card is 5 coins.

Of course, the Overlord card in your hand should have lost all knowledge about it being a Lurker before.

@josh: The problem isn't BoM/Overlord/Inheritance as such. The problem is that they change cards (themselves and others) during game play but only in certain zones, and many previous effects are (at least to me) not very clear about when they get information about those cards.

Watno

What you do is play Throne Room on Overlord. On the first Overlord play, you gave it emulate an Embargo, which leads to the Overlord being trashed (and therefore no longer being an Embargo). You now have Overlord emulate Band of Misfits for the second play. This means you're executing the instructions of Band of Misfits, however the card you're playing is an Ovelord (since it is not in play, but in the trash). So, since Overlord costs 8 debt, you should be able to select  a card costing less than 8 debt (for example engineer) and play Overlord as if it were that card.

Watno

Actually, thinking about this a bit more, I am not sure how this is supposed to work. When playing Overlord as BoM while it is in the trash, it becomes a BoM "until it leaves play". However, it doesn't leave play after that point, since it's never there in the first place.

Ingix

General Remark: This is more a rant about that fact that the actual Dominion rules are unclear (to me) about this topic, not that the online game is doing anything incorrectly.

The problem is that early in the Dominion history certain rulings were made that cards can be (re)played even if the physical cardboard is not present. This was at that time not a problem, because a card could not change its identity.

Throne Room would always know what an Embargo does when it is played a second time, because an Embargo was always an Embargo and always had the same text. Now this is no longer the case.

The problem I have with all the rulings in http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Band_of_Misfits is that they always assume that the current properties of the BoM card can be determined when it is played the second time. This is easy when the card is still in play (as usual) or in the Trash, but what if it moved to other, hidden zones? Maybe even to another player via Ambassador/Masquerade?

This is probably not possible at the moment, but it is in essence the same reason why the "loose track"-rule exists. A card (like Silver) that has been shuffled into your deck cannot be moved elsewhere, because you really have lost track of it and cannot tell (even if your were allowed to look at your deck) if it is the Silver on top, or in position 5, or 6 or 10.

Imagine a "Neo-Masquerade" that starts with the sentence 'Discard this from play.' and continues with the normal Masquerade text (+2 Cards, give card around,optionally trash a card). If you have used Inheritance to make your Estates into Neo-Masquerades, have an empty deck and play an Estate as Neo-Masquerade under Throne Room, you will (for the first play)

1) discard the Neo-Masquerade onto your discard pile
2) shuffle your discard pile because you need to draw 2 cards from your deck
3) draw 2 cards.

Assume that one of the cards you drew is an Estate. You give that Estate to your left opponent, or you trash it at the end of the first Neo-Masquerade.

What happens now on the second play of the Estate? Is the Estate card you used originally still 'yours', so it would still be a Neo-Masquerade? Is it in the trash or maybe your opponent got it? Even you don't know it yourself, because you lost track of the Estate when you shuffled it into your deck.

Maybe the result that werothegreat saw was actually what the rules say at the moment, applied to the letter: The Overlord card in the trash became a Lurker "until it left play", which never happened. So it was tracked by the game as still emulating a Lurker in the player's hand. When it was played, it acted that way. The "stay in hand" bit is still strange, tough.

But it should be clear that this behavior is nor sustainable in the real life card game: If that Overlord/Lurker had not been played but discarded from hand during Cleanup, it would have been shuffled in the deck, at which point it would have been impossible to distinguish from other Overlord card.

werothegreat

Inheritance says that while the Estates are yours, they take on the properties of the set aside card, and revert to being just Estates when they are no longer yours.  So If I Throne Room an Estate-as-Embargo, I only get +$2 and place one token, because when Throne Room tries to replay the Estate, it's now just an Estate, and only a Victory card, and can't be played.  It doesn't matter that Embargo's effect is not conditional on trashing - it's not an Embargo, it's an Estate that is no longer yours.

With your Neo-Masq example, Throning it would perform its effects twice - you discard it from play, draw 2 cards, pass things.  So it's certainly possible that you'll draw the Estate-as-Neo-Masq that you just played on the second play, and even be able to pass it to another player.  However, if you had King's Courted Estate-as-Neo-Masq, and passed it to another player on the second play, the third play would not happen, because the Estate is no longer yours, but the other player's.  Unless of course they had Inherited a card, in which case the third play would be whatever they had Inherited.

Ingix

Quote from: werothegreat on 02 February 2017, 07:23:53 PM
With your Neo-Masq example, Throning it would perform its effects twice - you discard it from play, draw 2 cards, pass things.  So it's certainly possible that you'll draw the Estate-as-Neo-Masq that you just played on the second play,

I constructed the Neo-Masq so that this could happen on the first play, but this is technicality.

Quote from: werothegreat on 02 February 2017, 07:23:53 PM
and even be able to pass it to another player.  However, if you had King's Courted Estate-as-Neo-Masq, and passed it to another player on the second play, the third play would not happen, because the Estate is no longer yours, but the other player's.  Unless of course they had Inherited a card, in which case the third play would be whatever they had Inherited.

My point is that this is not a doable way in real life as your opponent, and possibly not even you, could know if an Estate passed from you to another player is actually the same Estate that was just played by Throne Room/Kings Court.

The rules could be as you described in an electronic version, where the game can track the card. But it can't be done in a physical version without marking the card before it goes into a shuffle.

werothegreat

Aha.  Well, then this puts a restriction on future design space - Actions are not allowed to discard themselves from play, in case they are Inherited.

AdamH

I feel like this restriction was already there, since it becomes much easier to generate infinite money and buys when you do this.

Think of all the times we have to correct people on the rules when they think they have broken Dominion with an infinite Festival/Smithy loop, when they just put their Actions in the discard pile when they are played.

werothegreat

Quote from: AdamH on 03 February 2017, 04:56:49 PM
I feel like this restriction was already there, since it becomes much easier to generate infinite money and buys when you do this.

Think of all the times we have to correct people on the rules when they think they have broken Dominion with an infinite Festival/Smithy loop, when they just put their Actions in the discard pile when they are played.

Interestingly, in War of Omens, that's a feature, rather than a bug, and one of the strategies is to get yourself into an infinite loop.

Ingix

Let's try another example, without any made up cards:

1) Throne Room an Overlord
2) Play Overlord as Feast, trashing Overlord itself
3) Play the Overlord in the trash as Lurker, returning itself to your hand.

According to the letter of the rules, as discussed above, I would now conclude that that Overlord card is still emulating a Lurker in my hand, as the effect that made it a Lurker hasn't stopped yet.

If I now play an Overlord card from my hand, who is going to check if it is a pristine Overlord or the Overlord that is still a Lurker?


santamonica811

Quote from: Ingix on 03 February 2017, 11:45:33 PM
Let's try another example, without any made up cards:

1) Throne Room an Overlord
2) Play Overlord as Feast, trashing Overlord itself
3) Play the Overlord in the trash as Lurker, returning itself to your hand.

According to the letter of the rules, as discussed above, I would now conclude that that Overlord card is still emulating a Lurker in my hand, as the effect that made it a Lurker hasn't stopped yet.

If I now play an Overlord card from my hand, who is going to check if it is a pristine Overlord or the Overlord that is still a Lurker?

Hmmm . . . interesting hypo

Donald X.

Quote from: Ingix on 03 February 2017, 11:45:33 PM
According to the letter of the rules, as discussed above, I would now conclude that that Overlord card is still emulating a Lurker in my hand, as the effect that made it a Lurker hasn't stopped yet.
No, the effect that made Overlord into Lurker stopped as soon as it started.

BoM and Overlord stop being whatever if they are ever not in play, even if this does not involve moving from play to elsewhere. This is an old ruling addressing BoM / Feast.


Donald X.

Quote from: Ingix on 02 February 2017, 04:47:50 PMThis is probably not possible at the moment, but it is in essence the same reason why the "loose track"-rule exists. A card (like Silver) that has been shuffled into your deck cannot be moved elsewhere, because you really have lost track of it and cannot tell (even if your were allowed to look at your deck) if it is the Silver on top, or in position 5, or 6 or 10.
The "lose track" rule exists because you can actually lose track of cards. It's easiest to demonstrate with hypothetical cards, but actually possible with published cards, various ways.

We never lose track of what a card's text is though. Almost always you can look at the randomizer if you need to know it. In rare cases e.g. the Madmen run out, you would have to check the rulebook or your phone. Probably though, if the Madmen run out, you know what the card does.

Quote from: Ingix on 02 February 2017, 04:47:50 PMImagine a "Neo-Masquerade" that starts with the sentence 'Discard this from play.' and continues with the normal Masquerade text (+2 Cards, give card around,optionally trash a card).
Note that it is not necessary that the rules for Dominion cover hypothetical cards, only real ones. We can make hypothetical cards that turn into "this sentence is false."

werothegreat

I imagine it like the cards all have walkie-talkies.  So when Throne Room plays Band of Misfits, Band of Misfits says "Okay, I'm an Embargo now", then it gets trashed, and Throne Room doesn't know where it is, but Band of Misfits radios in and says "I'm back to being a Band of Misfits now, but I'm going to turn into a Lurker for a split second" and Throne Room just nods and says "okay, sure".

Ingix

Quote from: Donald X. on 04 February 2017, 11:37:12 AM
Quote from: Ingix on 03 February 2017, 11:45:33 PM
According to the letter of the rules, as discussed above, I would now conclude that that Overlord card is still emulating a Lurker in my hand, as the effect that made it a Lurker hasn't stopped yet.
No, the effect that made Overlord into Lurker stopped as soon as it started.

BoM and Overlord stop being whatever if they are ever not in play, even if this does not involve moving from play to elsewhere. This is an old ruling addressing BoM / Feast.

BoM and Overlord have 2 parts.

A) Play this as if it were an Action card ...
B) This is that card until it leaves play.

I'm trying to figure out what A) actually means, rules wise, and if B) is
X) just reminder text to explain what A) means, or
Y) continuing the effect of A) until the card leaves play, or
Z) something else entirely.

To get some questions:
1) If Overlord chooses BoM to copy, while BoM is executing its A) part and figuring out what its cost is, is that cost already 5 coins or still 8 debt?

I assume the intended answer is that the cost has already been changed to 5 coins, at the same time as all the other relevant characteristics have changed (including text) as part of the Overlord action executing.

2)If I Throne Room Overlord, pick a Feast the first time and BoM a second time, does the answer to the above question (does the BoM read its own cost as 5 coins or 8 debt) change?

According to http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Overlord, the answer is that the Overlord/BoM in the trash sees its cost as 8 debt.

If this is a change to 1) depends of course on the correct answer to 1). But if the answers are indeed different, I'd like to understand why. The ds. page says that the cost does not change for the Overlord in the Trash. If its cost did not change, did its text change? If yes, why the difference, if no, why are we executing the text of BoM?

Earlier in this thread:

Quote from: Donald X.
We never lose track of what a card's text is though. Almost always you can look at the randomizer if you need to know it. In rare cases e.g. the Madmen run out, you would have to check the rulebook or your phone. Probably though, if the Madmen run out, you know what the card does.

In my opinion, with Inheritance a Dominion event you cannot argue this way. The text of a card is of then no longer a constant (that was true already with BoM), but it is also no longer tied to a card name.

If you Throne Room an a card, you play it twice. The first time you play it, it starts in play, so you can actually follow its (maybe modified by Inheritance, self-modified by BoM/Overlord or affected by Enchantress) card text. The second time you play it, it may or may not be in play any longer. If it is no longer in play, how does the game decide on its text (and other characteristics, if necessary)?

Is it really a simple "What's printed on the physical cardboard of the card that was chosen to be played by Throne Room" as a rule or is it a more complicated "The characteristics of the played card, as modified by the game, but it turns out that if the card is not in play all currently existing modifying effects no longer apply to it in it's current place (because the only place it could be are the supply and the trash and Inheritance does not work there)"?

Generally, the current rulings on BoM/Overlord/Inheritance, especially your reversal on Throne Rooming a BoM that copies something that stays in play, afford a very easy 'mental model' (something that I think permeates a lot of Dominion design): These 'copy' effects change characteristics of a card for a while, so anything that looks for those characteristics will see the changed ones. BoM/Overlord change themselves, Inheritance changes Estates.

That 'for a while' got clarified in a sensible way for Overlord/BoM by you above. I think it has also been established that Inheritance can change those characteristics for some zones not in play. What I'm unsure about is if 'play a card' effects do access those characteristics or not.