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Author Topic: Journey Token  (Read 1833 times)

Offline ravi

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Journey Token
« on: 21 February 2017, 04:21:20 pm »
I get what they are trying to do with the journey token (Color = bonus, Gray = not bonus) but I think this is the opposite of what the card says. To me, colored is very clearly representing "token up" and gray "token down" so the current implementation is opposite to the card text. I get why they want to do it this way, but in my opinion that is trying to fix something with the game rather than implementing it online properly. Something just seems "wrong" about trying to do this fix. What they want is to change the way the journey token is implemented (have the flip happen after the card resolution rather than before). Here is a conversation I had with Phillip about it on Discord:

Quote
ravi - Today at 3:44 PM
why is the journey token reversed? won't that be super confusing?
Watno - Today at 3:46 PM
because it now matches what the cards say(edited)
you flip it while resolving a card
then you check what side it is on
ravi - Today at 3:48 PM
?
Giant says (for example), "it starts face up"
it now starts face down
Watno - Today at 3:50 PM
oh, i'm sorry
ravi - Today at 3:51 PM
I think MF did this properly, and Shuffle IT is doing it backwards
Philip - Today at 3:51 PM
it'll probably confuse people who were used to the MF version at first, but we think the new way is much more intuitive
colored token = you'll get the bonus
ravi - Today at 3:51 PM
I get what you are saying, but it is the opposite of what the card says
If you want to do that, then you should change the card text
to flipping the token after resolving the action
Philip - Today at 3:52 PM
the card says nothing about colors
ravi - Today at 3:52 PM
yes but "colored" is pretty clearly "face up" to me
and IRL you don't have colors at all, just face up and face down
Philip - Today at 3:53 PM
I say give it a chance
if lots of people complain about it we'll think about something different
ravi - Today at 3:54 PM
I understand it, but consider this at least one person complaining
 :)
Philip - Today at 3:54 PM
please give it a chance first  :)

What do others think? What does Donald X think? I think if they keep it this way, they should change the card text so that the flip happens after the card resolution and that the cards say that the token starts face down, otherwise revert back to how MF did it.

Online Philip

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #1 on: 21 February 2017, 04:33:16 pm »
If there's sufficient interest we can add a user preference that lets you flip the journey token flip behaviour.

Offline Witherweaver

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #2 on: 21 February 2017, 04:44:27 pm »
If there's sufficient interest we can add a user preference that lets you flip the journey token flip behaviour.

Personally, I think

Token State: Up/Down

text is optimal.

I never once knew the state of my journey token from physical inspection while playing Making Fun.

If there is a graphic, mouseover could tell you the token's state in terms of the card descriptions. (I.e., with "Current State: Up/Down")

Offline AdamH

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #3 on: 21 February 2017, 05:25:24 pm »
The card says there is a face up side and a face down side. It's the responsibility of the UI to make it clear which side of the token is face up and face down and for it to do what the card is saying. The fact that this discussion is taking place at all means that it needs to be changed.

"give it a chance" and "you'll get used to it" are not acceptable things to tell people. There is a way to implement this so that it's clear to everyone what's going on, you should just do it that way.

This latest release is pretty distressing, with this issue and also the sound that you can't turn off in the client. Seems to me that the best thing to do at this very moment is to revert this newest release and maybe actually make sure that what you're doing isn't making your software worse before pushing that release out for the public. Doing this makes the developers seem really out-of-touch with that the people using their product want.

This is a huge disappointment for me.

Offline Rabid

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #4 on: 21 February 2017, 05:30:12 pm »
I like the Colour = Good (Big effect), Grey = Bad (Small effect) system.
On MF and RL I can never remember if I am going to get the big effect from a card.

Offline Witherweaver

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #5 on: 21 February 2017, 05:31:42 pm »
"give it a chance" and "you'll get used to it" are not acceptable things to tell people.

Yes, they are.

Offline werothegreat

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #6 on: 21 February 2017, 05:32:50 pm »
It says right on the card "flip it over, then check".  That is what I'm used to.  It starts face up, and when you first play a Journey token card, it flips face down.  The client should implement what the card says, not some sort of weird player intuition.

Offline Witherweaver

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #7 on: 21 February 2017, 05:35:38 pm »
It says right on the card "flip it over, then check".  That is what I'm used to.  It starts face up, and when you first play a Journey token card, it flips face down.  The client should implement what the card says, not some sort of weird player intuition.

Information being displayed in the GUI is not the same as implementation.  You can argue that displaying "result after playing card" (or however you want to interpret it) is counterintuitive, but that doesn't mean it's implemented incorrectly.

Offline Rabid

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #8 on: 21 February 2017, 05:37:02 pm »
How about using two colours?
Green = next play Big
Red = next play Small

Offline JunkDealer

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #9 on: 21 February 2017, 05:45:53 pm »
I will have to agree that the current implementation is confusing.

The log shows the following:
     S flips Journey token face down.

And yet I now see the colored side.  To me the colored side is the face up side.

I understand that you want the colored side to indicate that the next time you play will result in the big action, but from the text of the cards and the text of the log I do find it confusing.

Perhaps the suggestion of a green vs red is a good one rather than a colored vs black and white token.

Offline ravi

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #10 on: 21 February 2017, 06:14:30 pm »
If there's sufficient interest we can add a user preference that lets you flip the journey token flip behaviour.

That's all well and good, but I really think you should default to what the card text says and have the current implementation be the "flip".

Offline Witherweaver

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #11 on: 21 February 2017, 07:15:13 pm »
There is a potential problem with a theoretical future card that observes, but does not alter, journey token state, and does different things depending on those states.  It seems that not every journey token card needs to be of the form "flip it, if up do this".  The journey token state information may be deductible at any point except during the resolution of cards that change it (not sure if this colored display is changing with the token or not), but displaying the state itself would be more direct.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #12 on: 21 February 2017, 07:28:14 pm »
This seems like a really odd decision.

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #13 on: 21 February 2017, 07:49:22 pm »
I think that I agree with the new implementation.  It gives a quick visual signal as to whether you will get the big or small effect on the next play.  This is a response to the repeated complaints about needing to go to the log for game information that should be in the play area.  That is what they are giving here, and I think that having green mean big effect on next play makes sense.  Obviously, the simple fix is to make an optional setting allowing the player to chose.  I also think that as we play and get use to this implementation, confusion will go away for most people. 

Offline JunkDealer

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Re: Journey Token
« Reply #14 on: 21 February 2017, 08:07:26 pm »
I don't disagree that I will get used to it.  I will.  I just think that the text offered (logs and the cards) and the color vs black and white design are at odds with each other.  I also don't disagree that it may even be more intuitive and for new players that's a good thing.  The issue is with old players who are used to the physical version and/or the making fun version.

The current implementation requires an adjustment in thinking, compared to making a small change in the design would not require such a change.  Instead of asking users to modify their thinking to match the implementation, it seems a slight shift in the design would make it clear for both new and old players.