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Scheme + Herbalist

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petrovic

In game #1623425 on oregon, I twice played a Scheme + Herbalist + Gold. Was unable to topdeck both the gold and the Herbalist as I believe I should be able to do.

Lotoreo

You played them in the wrong order. If you use scheme first, then it is according to the rule, that the herbalist power is not activated.

markus

Both cards say "when you discard this/it from play" so the order shouldn't matter, and I think you should be able to put either the Gold or the Herbalist on top of the deck first. (I'm discarding a Herbalist from play and I'm choosing to use Scheme and topdecking Gold.)

But the interface only allows you to use Scheme first and then Herbalist's power can't be used. So I think it is indeed a bug.

Martin plays Piano

In the Dominion Wiki the following is stated as "Synergies/Combo" in regards to Herbalist with Scheme:

"With Scheme, Herbalist can be used to keep putting the same treasure back on top over and over without having to buy up lots of terminal Herbalists."

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herbalist

So this might be not a concrete answer yes or no to the initial post, but from my view this indicates the combination Herbalist/Scheme as a good one which perfectly works together regardless the order of discarding.
So I am more with Markus, that it is a system bug.

Have fun
Rachmaninoff

Lotoreo

QuoteBoth cards say "when you discard this/it from play" so the order shouldn't matter,
No, that's exactly the point. If you put the herbalist on top of the deck, you don't "discard it from play"anymore. Thus, use its function first, then topdeck it.

markus

Scheme says "This turn, you may put one of your Action cards onto your deck when you discard it from play."
So when you use this effect on Herbalist, this is "when you discard it [Herbalist] from play". So you are discarding Herbalist from play, as required for it's own effect.

But regardless of that, the interface doesn't give you the option to topdeck Gold first, because it asks you about Scheme first and only Herbalist afterwards, if you didn't pick it for Scheme.

Ingix

Quote from: Lotoreo on 02 March 2017, 02:01:54 PM
QuoteBoth cards say "when you discard this/it from play" so the order shouldn't matter,
No, that's exactly the point. If you put the herbalist on top of the deck, you don't "discard it from play"anymore. Thus, use its function first, then topdeck it.

In real life play, if you choose to Scheme your Herbalist, you will just take the Herbalist from your in-play area and put it onto your deck. But technically, your are required to put it into you discard first (because it is the discard phase) and get it out from there to put onto your deck. Similiarly, if you play a Thief, technically you have to trash an opponent's treasure first and get it from the Trash into your discard. In practice, you tell the player "I want that Gold" and he will give it to you without anyone bothering to move it through the Trash.

Those "shortcut actions" become a problem when they are combined with triggers, as in this case, where a player's intuition about what should happen can become incorrect.

markus

I'm not sure that I can follow what you want to express. There shouldn't be a lose-track issue because the treasure getting topdecked with Herbalist is not discarded but put from play on top of deck. Hence, it doesn't cover up the Herbalist in the discard pile.

I would still think that you can put Gold / Herbalist in any order on top of your deck - but maybe you have to put the Gold there first. I'm pretty sure that it should be possible to topdeck both and that the interface doesn't currently allow that.

Ingix

Quote from: markus on 03 March 2017, 10:16:58 AM
I'm not sure that I can follow what you want to express. There shouldn't be a lose-track issue because the treasure getting topdecked with Herbalist is not discarded but put from play on top of deck. Hence, it doesn't cover up the Herbalist in the discard pile.

We are in agreement that according to the rules, when you discard the Herbalist, 2 things trigger:

a) Its own triggered ability, which optionally topdecks a treasure,
b) the delayed triggered ability of Scheme, created when it resolved (of course, if it hasn't been used on some other discarded card before).

Quote from: markus on 03 March 2017, 10:16:58 AM
I would still think that you can put Gold / Herbalist in any order on top of your deck - but maybe you have to put the Gold there first. I'm pretty sure that it should be possible to topdeck both and that the interface doesn't currently allow that.

Agreed that both orders of Treasure/Herbalist on top of your deck should be possible. Also agreed, it doesn't work in the game, once you select Herbalist for Scheme, it's own ability never seems to trigger.

I tried if maybe it was because of some card order thing, because you usually have to play the Scheme before the Herbalist (a terminal). But even when I played Village, then Herbalist, then Scheme it wasn't possible.

My comment was to Lotoreo, who used the mental shortcut "Topdeck Herbalist with Scheme *from play*" in order to incorrectly conclude that the Herbalist's ability never triggered, because (in his own words)

Quote from: Lotoreoyou don't "discard it from play"anymore

What *maybe* happened in the programming is that once a card is selected for Scheme to be topdecked, it's own triggered abilities from discarding are not handled any more for whatever reason.