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Author Topic: Resigning during opponents' turn  (Read 2379 times)

Offline jeebus

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Resigning during opponents' turn
« on: 03 March 2017, 04:35:43 pm »
I see no reason why resigning should be available unless it's your turn. That was how it was implemented on Isotropic and I can't remember anybody ever questioning it. I can't remember how it was implemented on Goko/MF.

Resigning should of course be possible, but I see no reason why you can't wait until your turn to do it. The biggest problem is the following: It seems it's becoming more and more common to resign in the last turn if your opponent is winning, often just a few seconds before the game is finished anyway. I think it's common courtesy to let the winner finish their last turn. The other side of that is that the winner should do it in a timely manner; but in a game of usually 25 to 50 turns in a two player game (counting each player's turns), one more turn of normal length (or actually whatever is left of that turn at the point when you feel like hitting the "resign" button) hardly matters in terms of time, and doesn't give you the right to cut it short. It's usually just poor sportsmanship and/or annoyance.

As for resigning mid-game, the same applies in terms of time: Waiting half-a-turn more before resigning does not make a difference for you. Although I've gotten used to it, it doesn't always feel nice to be interrupted in the middle of your play. The main reason is the resigning just before you're about to lose though.

There is a drawback to incomplete games in general. You never get to see how your strategy worked in the endgame, or how your opponent's strategy worked. You never get to learn how to *play* your strategy in the endgame. Your opponent just assumed (rightly or wrongly) that you would play it well and win, but you never got to try and see how it worked out in the end, or how close the game would have been. Dominion isn't just played to determine a winner and a loser, but to actually try, you know, playing the kingdoms - against your opponent of course. That said, I get that it's no fun to continue playing when you feel like you have no chance, especially if it's early in the game already, or there's no end in sight. As it gets close to ending, I feel like it's good sportsmanship to see it through - but you can't regulate that: either there is a resign button or there isn't. But there is one easy fix to avoid people resigning during the last turn of their opponent: Making the resign button available only on your turn.

Online markus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #1 on: 03 March 2017, 05:02:16 pm »
I usually don't resign on the opponent's final turn and especially not just before ending the game - I find it a bit awkward as well to have the opponent resign after I play the money for the last province.

But I think that I more often than not resign during opponent's turn: Firt, because I get new information from my next hand. Second, if I see that the opponent doesn't stall, it makes a resignation more reasonable.

If my opponent has decided to resign, I would rather have him resign immediately than let me play out a long turn, think about how to spend my 20 coins in the best way to safeguard victory and then have him resign.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #2 on: 03 March 2017, 05:28:25 pm »
If my opponent has decided to resign, I would rather have him resign immediately than let me play out a long turn, think about how to spend my 20 coins in the best way to safeguard victory and then have him resign.

On Isotripic we used to say, I'll resign now. Of course then you have to trust the other player. That was never a problem though.
I still think it's a much smaller problem that you sometimes have to play one more turn, than the problem of people resigning during the last turn.

Offline Stef

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #3 on: 03 March 2017, 05:44:52 pm »
I see your problem and want to do something about it, but I don't think disabling the resign button is a step in the right direction.

Allowing you to continue against an AI seems like a much better idea, that would also solve your problem?

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #4 on: 03 March 2017, 05:55:15 pm »
That said, I get that it's no fun to continue playing when you feel like you have no chance, especially if it's early in the game already, or there's no end in sight. As it gets close to ending, I feel like it's good sportsmanship to see it through - but you can't regulate that: either there is a resign button or there isn't. But there is one easy fix to avoid people resigning during the last turn of their opponent: Making the resign button available only on your turn.

I agree that it's generally good sportsmanship to only resign on your turn, however, I also feel it is very poor sportsmanship to "decksturbate" your last turn rather than winning the game expeditiously. If an opponent has enough coins to win and end the game, but instead proceeds to chain a bunch of actions together to draw their whole deck or pull off that Really Cool Combo, I won't hesitate to resign in the middle of it.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #5 on: 03 March 2017, 05:56:11 pm »
I see your problem and want to do something about it, but I don't think disabling the resign button is a step in the right direction.

Allowing you to continue against an AI seems like a much better idea, that would also solve your problem?

I only said disabling it during opponents' turns. As I said, it was like that on Isotripic and no-one ever thought it was a problem.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #6 on: 03 March 2017, 06:00:04 pm »
I agree that it's generally good sportsmanship to only resign on your turn, however, I also feel it is very poor sportsmanship to "decksturbate" your last turn rather than winning the game expeditiously. If an opponent has enough coins to win and end the game, but instead proceeds to chain a bunch of actions together to draw their whole deck or pull off that Really Cool Combo, I won't hesitate to resign in the middle of it.

How fast does the last turn have to be compared to a normal turn? It sounds like you're just feeling impatient because you lost. I know, I feel that too. I try to control it. I really notice that it's a cultural thing. Before, everybody would have the patience to wait one more turn (out of 25-50). Now, the culture is that people are resigning during the last turn; people are doing it to you all the time, so why should you have to wait for a turn that is one second longer than it needs to be? The mere presence of this button during the last turn fosters this culture.

Offline Stef

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #7 on: 03 March 2017, 06:04:00 pm »
I see your problem and want to do something about it, but I don't think disabling the resign button is a step in the right direction.

Allowing you to continue against an AI seems like a much better idea, that would also solve your problem?

I only said disabling it during opponents' turns. As I said, it was like that on Isotripic and no-one ever thought it was a problem.
On isotropic you could only resign at the start of your turn, and only if you had any decisions in your action phase. If your opponent had you in some kind of lock, or you discarded all your cards to torturer, you couldn't resign at all.

Don't get me wrong, isotropic was great, but this was certainly not something to be jealous of.

Offline Philip

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #8 on: 03 March 2017, 06:11:00 pm »
I agree that it's generally good sportsmanship to only resign on your turn, however, I also feel it is very poor sportsmanship to "decksturbate" your last turn rather than winning the game expeditiously. If an opponent has enough coins to win and end the game, but instead proceeds to chain a bunch of actions together to draw their whole deck or pull off that Really Cool Combo, I won't hesitate to resign in the middle of it.

How fast does the last turn have to be compared to a normal turn? It sounds like you're just feeling impatient because you lost. I know, I feel that too. I try to control it. I really notice that it's a cultural thing. Before, everybody would have the patience to wait one more turn (out of 25-50). Now, the culture is that people are resigning during the last turn; people are doing it to you all the time, so why should you have to wait for a turn that is one second longer than it needs to be? The mere presence of this button during the last turn fosters this culture.

On Goko and MF you could also resign at any point during the game. Personally I prefer if my opponent lets me finish my last turn, but ultimately that decision is up to him and not something that should be enforced from above.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #9 on: 03 March 2017, 06:11:37 pm »
I agree that it's generally good sportsmanship to only resign on your turn, however, I also feel it is very poor sportsmanship to "decksturbate" your last turn rather than winning the game expeditiously. If an opponent has enough coins to win and end the game, but instead proceeds to chain a bunch of actions together to draw their whole deck or pull off that Really Cool Combo, I won't hesitate to resign in the middle of it.

How fast does the last turn have to be compared to a normal turn? It sounds like you're just feeling impatient because you lost. I know, I feel that too. I try to control it. I really notice that it's a cultural thing. Before, everybody would have the patience to wait one more turn (out of 25-50). Now, the culture is that people are resigning during the last turn; people are doing it to you all the time, so why should you have to wait for a turn that is one second longer than it needs to be? The mere presence of this button during the last turn fosters this culture.

You're probably right on both counts.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #10 on: 03 March 2017, 06:11:45 pm »
On isotropic you could only resign at the start of your turn, and only if you had any decisions in your action phase. If your opponent had you in some kind of lock, or you discarded all your cards to torturer, you couldn't resign at all.

Don't get me wrong, isotropic was great, but this was certainly not something to be jealous of.

Ok, fair enough. I still thinks my other reasons stand.
As far as switching to AI... Sounds like a lot more work to implement. And it's still going to foster the bad form of resigning a few seconds before the game is over. If I was about to buy the last Province, it doesn't really make a difference if I do it against a bot. I'll still feel like I was subjected to a rage quit or at least an annoyed gesture. Switching to bot makes more sense if someone resigns earlier in the game. But of course, since the bot will probably be terrible at playing the other player's deck, it's not really going to tell me much about how the game would have played out.

Offline SkyHard

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #11 on: 03 March 2017, 06:14:31 pm »
I see your problem and want to do something about it, but I don't think disabling the resign button is a step in the right direction.

Allowing you to continue against an AI seems like a much better idea, that would also solve your problem?

I only said disabling it during opponents' turns. As I said, it was like that on Isotripic and no-one ever thought it was a problem.

I never played on Isotropic, so I cannot judge that.
I rarely resign, however, when the opponent is clearly winning and not playing his turn, I do resign. When he is chaining his actions, I don't care. Waiting when the opponent is not there is something else.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #12 on: 03 March 2017, 06:15:29 pm »
Personally I prefer if my opponent lets me finish my last turn, but ultimately that decision is up to him and not something that should be enforced from above.

Why not? Having a resign button is a variant in any case, just like a VP counter. The rules say nothing about being able to resign. It's just a question of finding a balance between the actual rules of the game and what feels best to the greatest amount of people (most of whom would never post here btw, a very easy thing to forget).

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #13 on: 03 March 2017, 06:16:17 pm »
On isotropic you could only resign at the start of your turn, and only if you had any decisions in your action phase. If your opponent had you in some kind of lock, or you discarded all your cards to torturer, you couldn't resign at all.

Don't get me wrong, isotropic was great, but this was certainly not something to be jealous of.

Ok, fair enough. I still thinks my other reasons stand.
As far as switching to AI... Sounds like a lot more work to implement. And it's still going to foster the bad form of resigning a few seconds before the game is over. If I was about to buy the last Province, it doesn't really make a difference if I do it against a bot. I'll still feel like I was subjected to a rage quit or at least an annoyed gesture. Switching to bot makes more sense if someone resigns earlier in the game. But of course, since the bot will probably be terrible at playing the other player's deck, it's not really going to tell me much about how the game would have played out.

But maybe a resign button is a relatively healthy way to "ragequit". Take away that resign button and some people will just close their browser instead, which could lead to you waiting for a reconnect/timeout.

Offline Martin plays Piano

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #14 on: 03 March 2017, 06:37:57 pm »
I am not a resign fan at all – but I can understand, that there are situations where resigning will be a win-win for both parties. A little chat IMHO will help to get agreement for all players rather than leaving the table without any word.
But coming back to your suggestion, Stef, the (optional) continuation of the resigned game by replacing the missing player with an AI sounds much better than leaving the remaining player with its half-finished turn. At least the active player will get the opportunity to play and test his successful engine and to bring it into a triumphal finish …
In regards to the future ranking (which hopefully will come soon), the win of a resigned game should be rewarded by getting more points. This should be done independently from the bots replacement – the voting is done when the resign happened, the bots are only for avoiding / mitigating the coitus interruptus feeling without any influence on the final result.

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