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Author Topic: Resigning during opponents' turn  (Read 2388 times)

Offline yed

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #30 on: 05 March 2017, 03:08:27 pm »
I vote for leaving resign as it is.

Offline zeruf

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #31 on: 05 March 2017, 05:40:43 pm »
I like the idea of replacing with an AI if you want, though I think it should be a prompt screen with something like 'Your opponent resigned, do you wish to continue playing against an AI?' Then you can click yes or no.

I've played against many players who have no issue with resigning and we end up playing 6 or 7 games (some of which we resign) so it would be annoying if I was forced to continue against an AI when I'd rather just start a new game vs. said opponent.

Offline twasa

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #32 on: 05 March 2017, 06:02:16 pm »
There has been some previous discussion about this topic on the forum, but it seems that resignation still rankles. For what its worth here are my thoughts:

I think there is a fundamental disagreement over what sort of "contract" you enter into by agreeing to play a game with someone.

I think this is the cause of the difference between players. Some see it as a binding contract to play until the end of game conditions are met, as jeebus has argued:

According to the rules, you take your turn, you don't resign. By starting to play a game, all players agree to play by the rules.

Or:

Why not? Having a resign button is a variant in any case, just like a VP counter. The rules say nothing about being able to resign.

Others like myself don't. I expect my opponent or myself to resign at any time for whatever reason at all. No explanation, forewarning or apology required.

In addition to resignation, players may just leave the game, as jaina8851 points out:

The second opponent didn't even bother with resigning, they just left the table and forced me to wait five minutes so I could force them to resign. Both cases left me inordinately irritated because once the person ragequits, I have no recourse...

I live in a country where it is not unusual to have power outages. This has happened to me a few times during a game. Obviously this will be interpreted as a ragequit by the other player if I am behind and may even earn me a place on that player's personal block list once that is implemented. There is little I can do about that, since hours later, when power is restored I am not even in a position to explain myself.

Mmh, my initial idea was to reward those resigned wins with additional points due to the fact that the victory was so overwhelming, that the opponent even resigns. What I mean is, that a win with a big difference of VP should be more weighted than a closer win with only 2 points difference – so why not adding some points in addition when your opponent is resigning – just an idea for those people like me thinking positive about their opponents.

Isotropic didn't do this and I hope it is not even considered. A win in dominion can be close with a large difference in final vp and very unequal with little difference in vp. The person who resigns, conceded the game and lost and that is all that should be considered.

...the (optional) continuation of the resigned game by replacing the missing player with an AI sounds much better than leaving the remaining player with its half-finished turn.

I think this makes sense in a game with 3 or more players, since more than one person is affected, but not really with 2 players. I don't care about finishing my mega turn if my opponent concedes the game.

My 2c.

 


Offline twasa

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #33 on: 05 March 2017, 07:05:22 pm »
I vote for leaving resign as it is.

I don't think we're down to voting yet :-)

Offline yed

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #34 on: 05 March 2017, 07:40:19 pm »
I vote for leaving resign as it is.

I don't think we're down to voting yet :-)
Well there will be no voting ever.... I meant, that I would like  to leave resign as it is ;)

Offline jeebus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #35 on: 06 March 2017, 04:19:57 pm »
Zeruf: You make some good points. Just a minor note: In parts of your post you argue against eliminating the resign button or "forcing yourself to play for another hour". That's a bit beside the topic of this thread, since I definitely did not argue for eliminating it, and only talked about waiting for one more turn (or less).

And similarly, to Twasa: You quoted me a bit out of context there. It looks like I'm saying that whenever you enter into a game you agree to a binding contract to finish it. I was only trying to say that resigning a game is something outside of the actual game, a "house rule", that is up to everybody to agree on. That was a response to Philip. As I said, if a Resign button is present at the outcome, resigning is part of the agreed-upon rules. (I'm sure you don't expect your opponent or yourself to "resign at any time for whatever reason at all, no explanation, forewarning or apology required" when sitting down to play a game IRL for instance. So I don't think you necessarily disagree with what I was saying in that post if you re-read it.)

Offline jaina8851

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #36 on: 06 March 2017, 04:34:28 pm »
Zeruf: You make some good points. Just a minor note: In parts of your post you argue against eliminating the resign button or "forcing yourself to play for another hour". That's a bit beside the topic of this thread, since I definitely did not argue for eliminating it, and only talked about waiting for one more turn (or less).

And similarly, to Twasa: You quoted me a bit out of context there. It looks like I'm saying that whenever you enter into a game you agree to a binding contract to finish it. I was only trying to say that resigning a game is something outside of the actual game, a "house rule", that is up to everybody to agree on. That was a response to Philip. As I said, if a Resign button is present at the outcome, resigning is part of the agreed-upon rules. (I'm sure you don't expect your opponent or yourself to "resign at any time for whatever reason at all, no explanation, forewarning or apology required" when sitting down to play a game IRL for instance. So I don't think you necessarily disagree with what I was saying in that post if you re-read it.)

I REALLY like what you described here, how resign is a 'house rule'. Perhaps it could be a setting, like anything else, so that people who hate resigns (like me, I will keep playing through to the end even if it's impossible for me to win; it never occurred to me that it would be annoying to the winning player!!) could have that setting turned off and won't be matched with players who have it turned on? At this point, I pretty much only play with bots or in games where I know the other player IRL because I'm so irritated by saying to myself "ah, I will play a nice game of Dominion over my lunch break" only to have the other player resign halfway through, and then I'm not able to play a game through to conclusion because I don't have enough time.

Offline twasa

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #37 on: 06 March 2017, 05:57:03 pm »
And similarly, to Twasa: You quoted me a bit out of context there. It looks like I'm saying that whenever you enter into a game you agree to a binding contract to finish it. I was only trying to say that resigning a game is something outside of the actual game, a "house rule", that is up to everybody to agree on.

jeebus, I'm sorry if I quoted you out of context, but it appears to me that we depart from different positions.

I'd argue that the social contract to play any game, always includes the option to withdraw from playing. It need not be part of the game rules or agreed as a variant house rule.

In games like chess, as others have pointed out in other discussions about this topic, it is even considered poor form to not resign when the result of the game is clear in favour of your opponent.

In a 2 player game IRL, I still don't have a problem with resignation. We can proceed to a next game and possibly play more games in the time we have available. I do think it makes a difference with more than 2 players though and players can decide beforehand how to deal with it.
 
I think resignation is beneficial to the online game, since the other options are to stop playing until your opponent can force you to resign or to close the browser window. That 4 minute wait feels like punishment. :-)

Offline SkyHard

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #38 on: 06 March 2017, 06:25:03 pm »
Completely removing the resign button would be a very bad idea (especially, since an infinite game is possible and who has that much time?).

Offline twasa

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #39 on: 06 March 2017, 06:31:05 pm »
SkyHard, infinite games can easily be ended. Both players stop playing until one times out. The result may not be pleasing though. One gets awarded a win, when a draw is probably a fairer result.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #40 on: 06 March 2017, 06:35:14 pm »
In a 2 player game IRL, I still don't have a problem with resignation. We can proceed to a next game and possibly play more games in the time we have available. I do think it makes a difference with more than 2 players though and players can decide beforehand how to deal with it.

I still don't think you would be okay with your opponent just walking away without a word, like you said. I even think you would expect them to ask if it's okay if they resign, at least in most cases. (Most games are not Chess.)

I think resignation is beneficial to the online game, since the other options are to stop playing until your opponent can force you to resign or to close the browser window. That 4 minute wait feels like punishment. :-)

Again: I have never advocated for removing the resign button.

Completely removing the resign button would be a very bad idea (especially, since an infinite game is possible and who has that much time?).

Yeah, isn't it great that this thread isn't about that at all?

Offline twasa

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #41 on: 06 March 2017, 07:08:57 pm »
I still don't think you would be okay with your opponent just walking away without a word, like you said. I even think you would expect them to ask if it's okay if they resign, at least in most cases. (Most games are not Chess.)

I think we really think about this differently.

No my opponent doesn't need my permission for what is already allowed. I cannot think of any reasonable grounds for refusing permission. Even if the other player should just walk away and not want to continue playing, it is their choice and I have no choice but to abide by it. I may be disappointed, but that is besides the point.

In a real life game, and often online, a game can end early because of a resignation and the players can play another. Or they don't.


Offline Rabid

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #42 on: 06 March 2017, 08:20:38 pm »
In a 2p game I would much rather my opponent just resign (Or say thanks for the game you win), than ask me for permission to resign.

If they ask my options are:
a) Say no and we play out a game that they are not enjoying.
Makes me feel bad, for "forcing" them to continue.

b) Say yes. Same outcome as if they didn't ask.

Offline Mick

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #43 on: 06 March 2017, 09:10:51 pm »
In a 2p game I would much rather my opponent just resign (Or say thanks for the game you win), than ask me for permission to resign.

If they ask my options are:
a) Say no and we play out a game that they are not enjoying.
Makes me feel bad, for "forcing" them to continue.

b) Say yes. Same outcome as if they didn't ask.

c) Say no, and they leave anyway.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Resigning during opponents' turn
« Reply #44 on: 07 March 2017, 12:47:02 am »
I think we really think about this differently.

No my opponent doesn't need my permission for what is already allowed. I cannot think of any reasonable grounds for refusing permission. Even if the other player should just walk away and not want to continue playing, it is their choice and I have no choice but to abide by it. I may be disappointed, but that is besides the point.

In a real life game, and often online, a game can end early because of a resignation and the players can play another. Or they don't.

Yes, we think about it differently, but you are not really addressing what I'm saying. Now you're talking about refusing permission to resign. If you go back and read what I wrote, I actually said the opposite of what you think I'm saying - that I would not refuse permission. The disappointment is exactly what I'm talking about. As I keep saying and you never reply to, you would not like it if your opponent walked away from the table without saying a word. In fact, how much you liked it would very much depend on exactly what they said as an explanation/excuse for resigning. And that would directly influence how much you'd elect to play with that person in the future. If for instance that person usually quits half-way through the game without saying a word and you have no idea why, you would stop playing with them. And the reason you would do that, is because they keep breaking this loosely defined social contract, which different people view differently and which depends on the game group and the circumstances, but which nevertheless is there, governing exactly how okay it is to resign in a given situation and the way it's okay to act at that moment.