when ordering topdecked cards in cleanup, direction is unclear

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Yariv

All cards appear in a column, and it seems that the cards pushed to the bottom will be drawn first, but this is not indicated anywhere. There should be some indication wether the stack is the order in which you return cards (return from the top, thus draw from the bottom) or the ordering of the stack you return (then you draw from the top)

It would also be nice to have drag and drop work for ordering this, but less important.

Ingix

In what case are you experiencing some interface for ordering cards in cleanup? Is it with Scheme, or Haunted Woods or something else?

Stef

Quote from: Ingix on 07 March 2017, 01:52:04 PM
In what case are you experiencing some interface for ordering cards in cleanup? Is it with Scheme, or Haunted Woods or something else?

The logic is a bit more complicated then just "using what cards".

It starts by assuming you have to order them, but then various rules try to stop you from having to order them if the game can deduce the order is irrelevant.

For example, when you play 4 schemes and will draw only 5 cards next turn it won't ask you to order them. If you play 6 schemes, it will ask you.

If you play 3 treasuries, no need to order. If you play 3 schemes, no need to order. If you play 3 treasuries and 3 schemes, you'll need to order them.

Yariv

I experienced it with lots of schemes. I guess there is also the possible issue of Alchemists, Herbalist and Potion, which may force, or at least limit, the possible orders. However, in any case where ordering happens, the interface should clearly indicate the direction.

McFly

I have gotten the interface many times even though it never mattered before what order I topdecked cards. Now I actually used it for the for the first time and it promptly lost me the game because it put the cards I wanted on top on the bottom. Please make it more clear what the interface actually does. This is like the Traveller thing all over again (and the Traveller interface isn't that great still).

Cave-O-Sapien

Quote from: Stef on 07 March 2017, 05:32:11 PM
Quote from: Ingix on 07 March 2017, 01:52:04 PM
In what case are you experiencing some interface for ordering cards in cleanup? Is it with Scheme, or Haunted Woods or something else?

The logic is a bit more complicated then just "using what cards".

It starts by assuming you have to order them, but then various rules try to stop you from having to order them if the game can deduce the order is irrelevant.

For example, when you play 4 schemes and will draw only 5 cards next turn it won't ask you to order them. If you play 6 schemes, it will ask you.

If you play 3 treasuries, no need to order. If you play 3 schemes, no need to order. If you play 3 treasuries and 3 schemes, you'll need to order them.

My two cents, for what it's worth:

This sort of "advanced logic" should be an optional setting. For frequent users, minimizing decisions is important, but for new or casual players, it's much more important to consistently and clearly show each step.

Stef

Quote from: Cave-O-Sapien on 13 March 2017, 08:41:34 PM
My two cents, for what it's worth:

This sort of "advanced logic" should be an optional setting. For frequent users, minimizing decisions is important, but for new or casual players, it's much more important to consistently and clearly show each step.

In general I can see that point being valid, but I don't think any novice player is going to be helped by a "Please select in which order you want to topdeck these three Treasuries" kind of question.

Asking pointless questions with only 1 answer, or with all the answers having the same effect, can also lead to a puzzling sensation for a novice player ("what on earth is the game asking of me now").

Ingix

The problem is that the current interface works well for one set of "Plan your Clean-Up" effects, and maybe for a few interactions, but not for others. Herbalist/Scheme is incomplete as mentioned elsewhere: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1594

Scheme+Treasury together seems to always come up with an "Plan your Clean-Up" screen, even though it wouldn't matter because (for example) only 3 cards are to be topdecked.

In game #1977249, decision 98 I encountered another problem. I had played a Scheme and 2 Peasants (plus action givers). When I now end the turn, the game first asks what I want to scheme, I choose 1 Peasant, then it wants me to plan my clean-up: 2 times asking if I want to exchange Peasant for Soldier, once reminding me that one Peasant will be effected by Scheme (see attached picture).

However, there is no indication which of the Peasants is going to be affected by Scheme when I choose between Keep/Exchange for each of the two. I tried all 4 possibilies:

1) Choosing "Keep" for both results in one ending up discarded, one topdecked, as expeted.
2) Chhosing "Exchange" for both results in both being exchanged, which is possible but ambiguous, because there is nothing that gives the exchange effect precedence over the topdeck effect, it should be decided by the player.
3) Choosing "Keep" and "Exchange", in *both* orders results in one exchanged, one discarded. This is also possible but ambiguous, because the game doesn't know which Peasant is the one which I also decided to Scheme: The one with "Exchange", or the one with "Keep".

The one option I actually may want to achieve with this play is not possible in the game: Exchange one, topdeck the other.

jeebus

I noticed now too that with Schemes and Alchemists, the column for ordering cards seems to be upside down. Whatever you put at the bottom ends up on top and vice versa. I get that it's because you topdeck them in the given order, but that's not clear at all.

Of course this is also an issue with things like Ghost Ship, where the interface doesn't tell you that the first one you choose will go below the second one. After you choose the two cards, there should be a window for ordering them with drag and drop. The default order should be the one you chose (like it is presently), so that once you learn that, you can just hit Done. But this will prevent mistakes and confusion.

yed


Cave-O-Sapien

Quote from: yed on 05 October 2017, 08:21:17 AM
Plese no more drag and drops until it works in Android!

Drag and drops are also annoying in Chrome. I can never drag a card to the right-most position. If I want a card there I usually have to move everything else.

dane

Quote from: Cave-O-Sapien on 05 October 2017, 08:24:25 AM
Drag and drops are also annoying in Chrome. I can never drag a card to the right-most position. If I want a card there I usually have to move everything else.
I've seen the same in Firefox, but it can be replaced by two moves, namely drag card to penultimate position at right and then drag right-most card to its left.

yed

The drag and drop is not working in both Firefox and Chrome on Android.

Rabid

Quote from: jeebus on 04 October 2017, 05:35:23 PM
I noticed now too that with Schemes and Alchemists, the column for ordering cards seems to be upside down. Whatever you put at the bottom ends up on top and vice versa. I get that it's because you topdeck them in the given order, but that's not clear at all.

Of course this is also an issue with things like Ghost Ship, where the interface doesn't tell you that the first one you choose will go below the second one. After you choose the two cards, there should be a window for ordering them with drag and drop. The default order should be the one you chose (like it is presently), so that once you learn that, you can just hit Done. But this will prevent mistakes and confusion.
I like to think of getting attacked by Ghost ship as follows.
Return 1 card to the top of deck.
Check if hand size is 3.
Repeat

That way the ordering makes sense to me.

Cave-O-Sapien

Quote from: dane on 05 October 2017, 10:52:21 AM
Quote from: Cave-O-Sapien on 05 October 2017, 08:24:25 AM
Drag and drops are also annoying in Chrome. I can never drag a card to the right-most position. If I want a card there I usually have to move everything else.
I've seen the same in Firefox, but it can be replaced by two moves, namely drag card to penultimate position at right and then drag right-most card to its left.

Yes, that's what I was referring to (with a slight exaggeration).