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Author Topic: Pro leaderboard with bugs  (Read 5124 times)

Offline AdamH

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #15 on: 04 April 2017, 01:27:34 PM »
Silence, which is what I have gotten for pretty all of my other direct questions to the developers, is different than "no."
I'm not sure if you are criticizing the developers for no response, but if you are I think it's very unfair.

I'm not criticizing them for not responding to everything here. I don't think that's a good idea, given they have lots of people who will do that for them. I was only pointing out that there is a long precedent of them not responding, so it would have been a reasonable thing to do here. Much of the rest of your post is addressed by this.

"No" actively attempts to shut down more discussion on what could be helpful. It is different than "no engagement required."
I disagree. "No" does not shut down discussion, and I highly doubt Stef was trying to thwart any beneficial things that could come from a debate. I completely disagree with the bolded section, the only thing I think No shuts down is debate about whether the company will do it, and that won't be helpful. It's one thing to say they need more evidence, it's another to say they were trying to shut down helpful discussion. Seriously, just think about that phrase, and try to believe it.

Look at what happened to this thread. My previous post. The discussion here has been all over the place and it's been about everything except making this issue better. I've pushed as hard as I can, repeated myself about 55 times in this thread, trying to bring other ideas out that would make the situation better, but people are just going on about the idea in my OP...

From my point of view, your original post seemed almost like a joke, obviously flawed and kinda harsh and assuming. I can't imagine a vastly better answer than no.

Even if my post "seemed harsh" (I read it again, I'm not seeing it); even if my post was made on April Fool's Day; these would have nothing to do with the validity of my idea. It's ironic that you say you can't imagine a better answer to my OP when right after Stef's "response" you are the person who posted next -- with a vastly better answer!

Just saying no is an argument from authority. It means nothing to me, it's not going to change my opinion. If I didn't have that opinion I wouldn't have made the OP in the first place, regardless of what "holiday" it was. You gave reasons why my idea was bad, that's the kind of thing that will make me consider other options to improve it, which I did.

It's beyond me how anyone could think Stef's post was better than yours. His was really really bad and yours was really good.

I think there's a simple answer right under your nose: Don't play rated games.

If you are annoyed by bugs in the system and you think it's unfair the way they affect ratings, then play without ratings. I really can't think of a more efficient solution. It's perfect: You can ban the cards you want and not loose ranking due to stupid bugs, other people who don't care can enjoy having a sense of accomplishment even with slightly busted rankings.

This is what I'm going to do of course. This answer works for anyone who knows about all the bugs and chooses to do the same thing. On the other hand, anyone who sees the matching tab and sees a rated game, expects the game to work like the Dominion rulebook says, and then gets hosed by a bug and gets a bad score on the leaderboard, is going to have a really bad taste in their mouth. The leaderboard is out there now, so it should reflect what it represents as best it can so that this kind of thing doesn't happen. That's why I made this thread.

Offline serakfalcon

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #16 on: 04 April 2017, 01:57:23 PM »
To flesh out the "no" side a little more:

  • The purpose of the ranking is to match people of similar skill. Since bugs affect everyone equally, the effects cancel out. Thus, there is no point to reset the ratings since after a few days they would end up the same way again, and you'll have the added frustration of not being appropriately matched for a few days after every reset.
  • Higher level players will be more likely to be aware of the bug, and can either enforce a ban on the bugged cards for their own games (By removing it from their "familiar cards" and setting "max unfamiliar cards" to 0), or accept that the bug could work both ways and take the side-effects into account while playing. Lower level players may get taken advantage of, but them losing a little bit of ranking due to someone 'gaming' the system probably isn't going to matter much since most of the people they are playing with are likely also unaware of the bug.
  • The amount of games where the result was legitimately affected by bugs is not likely to be large enough to warrant adding a reset to the rating system. If you want the data for yourself to see what % of games are affected I suggest offering the devs the money to pay for the time they'd have to spend to generate such a report.
  • Resetting the ratings costs manpower that could be put to use fixing bugs. This adds up over time.
  • The leaderboard, which is effectively just a representation of the skill levels, already "resets" every night. When the bug is fixed rankings will slowly resolve themselves.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #17 on: 04 April 2017, 02:09:29 PM »
Since bugs affect everyone equally, the effects cancel out.
Higher level players will be more likely to be aware of the bug

I must be missing something, it seems like these two things contradict each other. The whole point of doing anything would be because players can't be expected to know of all bugs in the current version of the software, so that they can be played around; but some players would. The ones that know about the bugs would get an unfair advantage and the ones that don't are going to have a bad time.


enforce a ban on the bugged cards for their own games (By removing it from their "familiar cards" and setting "max unfamiliar cards" to 0)

This is possible? I have been unable to do this in rated games.

...but my suggestion, which I will repeat again, would not be difficult to implement and is effectively the same thing:

There are other solutions besides resetting the leaderboard as well. Cards or combinations of cards with known bugs could be on the banned list, even if it's just for Pro games.

If people could do it individually, it would be nice (actually the more I think about it the less I like it, but that's another topic), but I think a global "banned cards list" for pro games would be more appropriate -- only for cards or combinations of cards with known issues.

Offline serakfalcon

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #18 on: 04 April 2017, 02:22:52 PM »
Quote
I must be missing something, it seems like these two things contradict each other. The whole point of doing anything would be because players can't be expected to know of all bugs in the current version of the software, so that they can be played around; but some players would. The ones that know about the bugs would get an unfair advantage and the ones that don't are going to have a bad time.

It's 'fair' in the sense that the bugs act consistently. Players of different skill levels are playing an unfair game from the get-go, but it's not because of the rules. They are more likely to know 'exploits' that are completely legal according to the rules of the game itself. The bugs happen to be a specific type of 'exploit' that shouldn't be allowed due to the rules of the game, though there are plenty of 'winning strategies' that a pro knows and an amateur does not. I do admit these bugs are 'one more tool' in the toolbox of an informed player, but in my view someone who has devoted the time to figure out how to exploit the existing bugs is also likely to devote the time to figure out the game, which will give them natural advantages beyond that of the bug itself thus, the real impact of the bugs on the ratings is likely to be a lot less than you seem to be thinking.

Offline Watno

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #19 on: 04 April 2017, 02:29:34 PM »
can either enforce a ban on the bugged cards for their own games (By removing it from their "familiar cards" and setting "max unfamiliar cards" to 0)
Familiar cards are never considered in ranked games, only in practice games and at tables where the option to respect them is turned on.