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Author Topic: Pro leaderboard with bugs  (Read 5258 times)

Offline AdamH

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Pro leaderboard with bugs
« on: 01 April 2017, 09:59:44 PM »
I played a rated game against someone today. They got bit really hard by the Enchantress/Champion bug, I won the game. If I was in his position I would have been really upset if my position on the leaderboard was affected by a bug in the software.

I assume that once all known gameplay-related bugs are fixed (and Stash is implemented, and all tokens and effects are actually visible to the players -- basically when the software actually emulates the game of Dominion instead of what it is now) that the leaderboard will be wiped clean? I don't think it's appropriate to keep ratings around until that happens.

EDIT: since it seems to be unclear, while I still think it would be a good idea to not have a leaderboard until all gameplay-related issues are fixed, I no longer think that having the current leaderboard and then wiping it would be the best solution given the current situation.

There are other solutions besides resetting the leaderboard as well. Cards or combinations of cards with known bugs could be on the banned list, even if it's just for Pro games. [...] Maybe showing that you're doing what you can to make the customers' experience as good as possible while the software gets to where it needs to be is a better approach.

Offline Stef

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #1 on: 01 April 2017, 10:50:22 PM »
no

Offline ThetaSigma12

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #2 on: 02 April 2017, 02:31:45 PM »
I feel like way more people would get pissed off from the leaderboard resetting then from having 1/100th of their losses be really unfair.

There are also 2 reasons that make me not like this:
1) When will you set the point when you say the game "actually emulates Dominion"? I set the point now because I think it's close enough, even better then all the mistakes we make IRL (I don't have Sauna and Avanto - does that mean I'm not playing Dominion?). If you set it at perfection, it's quite possible we'll never reach that bar. What I'm saying is we won't all agree on when the game emulates Dominion so we'll never agree on when to wipe the boards, if ever.

2) There will always be some games lost unfairly, because of general computer problems that are sure to happen. That's just life, and I don't think some bug that to be honest probably rarely happens (it wasn't caught for months) is any more of a reason to make everybody loose their progress.

That's my thoughts on the issue. I do sympathize with the issue of unfair losses but I really can't see a reason to wipe the entire leaderboard because of them. Maybe another solution?

Offline AdamH

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #3 on: 02 April 2017, 04:02:06 PM »
You make some good points. It's a little bit alarming that you are able to give an actual response with actual reasons as opposed to the developer who came in here to give a flippant answer to a valid question. The fact that their priorities are such that this question even had to be asked in the first place (along with several other things) suggests that they're out of touch with their customer base, but I don't imagine it was extremely taxing to put together a thoughtful response with valid reasons like you have.

The developers have personal issues with me. Whatever, I think they're wrong but people are allowed to not like me. In spite of that, I've done everything I can to help their software succeed, even with their complete lack of cooperation. I am under no obligation to be professional here, but it seems like I am the one doing so and the developers, who are supposed to be acting in a professional capacity, are doing exactly the opposite.

There is one question you ask that I feel like I should answer, though.

When will you set the point when you say the game "actually emulates Dominion"? I set the point now because I think it's close enough

I develop software for a living. Before doing anything else, we come up with requirements for our software. This is a part of the software engineering process that really can't be skipped, because then you end up with software like this, with no sort of direction whatsoever.

If I was writing requirements for Dominion software, the very first thing I would have put on that list would be to implement all of the cards correctly, with no bugs. Until that happens, I really don't see how anyone can view Shuffleit as a complete product. Until that happens, I really don't think they are justified in asking for money for their product. Yes, they are extremely close, and yes, there is some wiggle room here (MF never actually got Possession/Outpost working the way it's supposed to), but it seems pretty ridiculous to me that they've prioritized a nice-to-have feature (leaderboard) over the basic functionality of the product.

But whatever, not everyone has the same priorities as me. I'm willing to accept that.

There is a list of known issues with cards. It's not just the Enchantress/Champion bug. It's not just Stash. When you can't see your -$1 token without digging through the game log (which doesn't display all of the information needed to follow the game) then cards that use that token simply aren't playable. They are as good as Stash. There are things that have been on that list for quite a while. Yes, things will continue to pop up, but when we're at the point when everything on that list is minor and getting fixed quickly and the list is otherwise empty, that seems like a good place to start the leaderboard.

There are other solutions besides resetting the leaderboard as well. Cards or combinations of cards with known bugs could be on the banned list, even if it's just for Pro games. But giving one-word flippant responses instead of promoting a healthy discussion to come up with what's best for the software doesn't seem like the right thing to do. Maybe showing that you're doing what you can to make the customers' experience as good as possible while the software gets to where it needs to be is a better approach.

Offline markus

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #4 on: 02 April 2017, 04:47:10 PM »
I thought that your question was an April fools.  ???

I think it's obvious that you'd rather have a few people have their rating slightly wrong than make everyone's rating completely wrong again. Also notice how quickly that bug was fixed.

While I think it would be better to have some more information about near term improvements (like the announced plan to implement Inheritance and leaderboard by the end of March), I'd rather have the developers fix actual problems than discuss this particular question at lengths.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #5 on: 02 April 2017, 05:30:29 PM »
I thought that your question was an April fools.  ???

Ugh, I've always hated April Fools. I actually managed to forget that it was yesterday through most of the day.

I'd rather have the developers fix actual problems than discuss this particular question at lengths.

I'd rather have silence than what I got from the devs though.

Offline ThetaSigma12

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #6 on: 02 April 2017, 06:54:36 PM »
I can see why Stef just answered "no" to your question, it seemed like the obvious answer. I mean, I seriously don't think anyone would want the leaderboard to be completely cleared. I agree with healthy discussion, but man, when you ask a yes or no question with a seemingly obvious answer, giving that answer seems like the right response.

About your answer to "when is it dominion" I fall back on the fact that ShuffleIT will never be perfect. Right now it really has some problems, and it for sure has big problems and things to question. But you ask for perfection. When it's December 19 and they think it's fine and they reset, what happens when they find a Stash/Upgrade/Tomb bug that is implemented wrong? Do they fix it and reset the leaderboard again?

Offline twasa

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #7 on: 02 April 2017, 07:04:46 PM »
I also think just a "no" is quite appropriate to the original question, no "engagement" required. Whatever bugs are present, we're all playing under the same conditions. Whether purist dominion or something close to that.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #8 on: 02 April 2017, 08:48:28 PM »
Silence, which is what I have gotten for pretty all of my other direct questions to the developers, is different than "no." "No" actively attempts to shut down more discussion on what could be helpful. It is different than "no engagement required." Just stating something with no justification is worse than nothing in every way I can possibly imagine. I'm just not buying that it was an appropriate response.

About your answer to "when is it dominion" I fall back on the fact that ShuffleIT will never be perfect.

I addressed this in my previous post. There are plenty of other things that would be a nice gesture. I'm not asking for them to know every possible bug all of the time, just to do something about the known issues while they are still known.

I certainly am not the only one that thinks Shuffleit should be making more nice gestures towards its community.

Offline tufftaeh

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #9 on: 03 April 2017, 01:37:53 PM »
I certainly am not the only one that thinks Shuffleit should be making more nice gestures towards its community.

Right. But so far, you seem to be the only one who thinks your suggestion of wiping the leaderboard is a good idea. So maybe you could stop being mortally insulted because the developers didn't take the time to write down the reason which everybody else in this thread seems to think is obvious: This would make way more players unhappy than keeping a tiny deviation from the "correct" rating due to a software bug. You would do everybody (including yourself) a service if you continued to follow up on other improvement suggestions instead of complaining here.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #10 on: 03 April 2017, 07:26:10 PM »
Please read my previous posts in this thread.

Offline drsteelhammer

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #11 on: 04 April 2017, 06:33:37 AM »
The reason why ratings were implemented before the other things you mentioned was mainly due to improving matchmaking. The leaderboard is just a byproduct of improving matches by determining players of similar skill.

Additionally, it is now easier to play either with familiar cards or without them.

I don't think it would be worth it to go back to a blank slate regarding rankings, since even after a few days the matching process got significantly better. Of course you're free to abstain from being ranked yourself until you consider the product suitable, but to the other it is valuable right now and resetting would diminish their experience.

Offline ThetaSigma12

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #12 on: 04 April 2017, 01:10:10 PM »
Silence, which is what I have gotten for pretty all of my other direct questions to the developers, is different than "no."
I'm not sure if you are criticizing the developers for no response, but if you are I think it's very unfair. There are a TON of suggestions on this forum and the devs probably have better things to do than critique every idea posted. There's some tension between your points, they don't necessarily contradict, but wanting the developers to engage in many/most/more/all discussions giving in depth details even when they are somewhat clear, and wanting the developers to work more when the platform, as it seems to be your opinion, is "woefully behind".
"No" actively attempts to shut down more discussion on what could be helpful. It is different than "no engagement required."
I disagree. "No" does not shut down discussion, and I highly doubt Stef was trying to thwart any beneficial things that could come from a debate. I completely disagree with the bolded section, the only thing I think No shuts down is debate about whether the company will do it, and that won't be helpful. It's one thing to say they need more evidence, it's another to say they were trying to shut down helpful discussion. Seriously, just think about that phrase, and try to believe it.

Just stating something with no justification is worse than nothing in every way I can possibly imagine.
As most people seem to agree, no justification was needed. It seemed obvious.

Anyways, you asked "will the leaderboards be reset" and he said "no". What part of that seems bad? You didn't ask why won't they be reset, you asked whether they will be reset. No answered that question and I don't see why you want complete justification.

I'm just not buying that it was an appropriate response.
Okay, it depends what you're looking for in ShuffleIT's PR. From my point of view, your original post seemed almost like a joke, obviously flawed and kinda harsh and assuming. I can't imagine a vastly better answer than no.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #13 on: 04 April 2017, 01:12:10 PM »
I'm not sure what is so unclear about what I said. I've re-read my posts in this thread and I honestly don't see what I said that was unclear, but people are still responding to things I said in my OP that I addressed in other posts in this thread. It's upsetting to think that even though I directly addressed drsteelhammer's and tufftaeh's concerns in a post in this thread, that common consensus is that I still am advocating for the solution of "have the leaderboard, then wipe it when all gameplay-related bugs are fixed" -- obviously that doesn't even mean anything since it's not feasible to tell when that would be.

I've edited my previous posts to try and make this more obvious. I will also quote the relevant parts here once again.

There are other solutions besides resetting the leaderboard as well. Cards or combinations of cards with known bugs could be on the banned list, even if it's just for Pro games. [...] Maybe showing that you're doing what you can to make the customers' experience as good as possible while the software gets to where it needs to be is a better approach.

I suppose it's really easy to see my OP, see Stef's response, and think "yes this is a bad idea" and not even read anything else that I said. This is exactly the problem with Stef's post. All of the discussion in this thread has been about the wrong thing because his post does nothing but attempt to shut down discussion about what would be best for his software.

That is no excuse, though. People should read the thread before responding to it and complaining about what I'm saying. When presented with opposing points of view, I'm capable of coming up with solutions that, while I don't think they are ideal, are better than my original idea. In spite of Stef's (and other posters') best efforts to squash that discussion, I'm still trying to have it. The two most recent posts in this thread have simply been off-topic and it's frustrating to see this happen.

I would like to address this:

Additionally, it is now easier to play either with familiar cards or without them.

This is simply not true. It is now easier to play without familiar cards and much more difficult to play with them. Tables still do not remember a player's preferred settings, they will revert back to the default whenever the table is left. The default for respecting familiar cards was changed to off. Now, the only way to play respecting familiar cards is to make a table, go into advanced options, and select the option every time a table is created.

Don't get me wrong, this is better than it was before. Now, the default behavior is such that people aren't going to see the same 10 kingdom cards over and over again with only very small variations. This was a huge problem and I'm really glad something was done about it.

It's not the final solution, though. The client should remember each user's most recent table settings and apply them as the default each time that user creates a new table.

Offline ThetaSigma12

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Re: Pro leaderboard with bugs
« Reply #14 on: 04 April 2017, 01:17:34 PM »
I think there's a simple answer right under your nose: Don't play rated games.

If you are annoyed by bugs in the system and you think it's unfair the way they affect ratings, then play without ratings. I really can't think of a more efficient solution. It's perfect: You can ban the cards you want and not loose ranking due to stupid bugs, other people who don't care can enjoy having a sense of accomplishment even with slightly busted rankings.