Impressive achievement

Previous topic - Next topic

knadles

I tried the new version of Dominion when it went live. It sucked pretty hard and I was told by several people that I should just wait; that the beta testers had already seen huge improvements and it was only going to get better.

Four months have passed, tried it again. Nice to see that it's still utter crap. I offer the following recommendations:

1) The developers should read a few books on UX design before they ever try this again. Maybe take a class at HFI or N/Ng. The '90s are over. Y'all put more effort into the unnecessary background art than you did playabilty. To borrow a quote I once read on Twitter: SAD!!!

2) Whoever owns the parent rights to Dominion, whether that's Rio Grande or Donald X. or someone else, should fire these incompetent dorks before they do any more damage to the brand. Making Fun had its problems, but I used to play the digital version 3-4 days a week. Since the start of 2017, I hardly think about Dominion any more. Most of my friends have given up on it as well.

I'll pay whatever you want. Somebody from the future just make a good effing game. PLEASE.

Sincerely,

Peter

tufftaeh

I'm sorry that you don't like the new Dominion Online. But I'm happy that I like it. And I can even tell you why: It allows reconnects, it has undo, it has spectator mode, and it has almost all cards (I can survive without Stash). For me, this is much better than Making Fun's implementation.

I guess there are some specific things in the interface that you don't like - can you maybe specify which ones? Some might be already changeable through the user options, e.g. you can switch off the background art and you can switch off the confirmation button for single card trash/discard (which you mentioned in a previous post).

Jacob Marley

Donald X once said something to the effect that "if this implementation doesn't work out, we will probably give up on online Dominion" so if playing online is something you want, you are best served by offering specific constructive advice on what you want to see changed to make it usable for you, rather than just mean-spirited insults.

If you don't really care about playing on-line anymore, then try to find something better to do with your time then spending it on mean-spirited insults...

knadles

Fine. I don't have time to offer a complete list, but here are a few:

1) I should be able to play against more than one AI opponent at a time. If there's a way to do this, it's not obvious, and it should be. Don't tell me the point is to play other humans. Screw that. I can do that at home with my actual friends. Online, I like to play quick games to kill time during lunch at work and I have no patience for playing against an opponent who disappears for five minutes mid-game (and yes, that's happened more than once).

2) The display is ENORMOUS on my 24" monitor. I'm sure it looks fine on a phone, but it should be scalable or resizable or have a setting for max width. Yeah, I could resize my browser, but why should I have to? I have ten tabs open and the others display cleanly and correctly.

3) The hand of cards should look like a hand of cards, NOT stacks with a notification number. This rule can be negated when the hand reaches a certain unwieldy size. Visual cues are important. "The stack" is not a good visual cue. Again, I'm sure this was designed with a phone in mind, but the grownups have real computers.

4) "Autoplay treasures" makes no sense as a label. "Play all treasures" is more descriptive of what it actually does. "Autoplay" sounds like a setting that makes the treasures...well..autoplay. And it should be in the center of the screen, because it's important.

5) A card like Pearl Diver gives me one option: Topdeck. Where is the Bottomdeck option? If it's there, it's again not clear. Why would that be hidden? (I know; you're supposed to ignore it and click the next card, but BAD UX. Cripes. These people wouldn't last ten minutes at the Google.)

6) What is the point of the cards sliding up and down the screen when it's the other players' turns? Are there any other games that do this? Is there maybe a reason why is isn't a common design choice?

7) I should be able to turn off the card sequence crap on the right. Sheesh, it looks like an IRC channel from 1995.

8) All the card piles should be the same size, and the coin/VP stacks should be somewhere more central than the northwest corner.

9) The background screens are ridiculous. They remind me of the DOS Tetris game I had as a kid, only that was some kind of a Russian circus. It doesn't make it look hi-tech; it makes it look cheesy.

10) End Turn should not be way off to the right. Fine if you're on a phone; it's a long haul if you're dragging a mouse pointer around the screen. Again...important = center and easy to reach.

This is off the top of my head. Don't get me started on the subscription plan, which is a deal killer for me just on principle. Yeah, I can afford it, but bad enough Adobe and Microsoft are pitching this pay-as-you-go stuff. I need them. I don't need ShuffleiT's lame online web game. I just want to play a few hands of Dominion while I eat my burrito dammit. Which is what I used to do. I'd pay for all the stuff again if the game didn't suck, but only once.

I'm glad you guys like it. Someone should. I had no love of Making Fun, but after some fits and starts the monkeys typing Shakespeare had at least come up with something usable. This site reminds me of something one of my professors once said: you could make a hammer with a curved handle, and you could probably learn to use it, but it wouldn't be a good hammer and it would never be as useful as a hammer with a straight handle.

You guys have learned to live with the curved handle and that's fine. I refuse to do so. As professional developers, ShuffleiT should have higher standards, but sadly, they're not alone in the world of crappy software development. Again, I can't do enough to stress the importance of learning a little UXD. Start with the book "The Design of Everyday Things." And read up on Fitts's Law for cryin' out loud.

Those are my helpful comments. Any more time spent on this and I'd need to send someone an invoice. All my best to you guys. Maybe I'll play you in person some day, but it won't be here.

Cave-O-Sapien

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
3) The hand of cards should look like a hand of cards, NOT stacks with a notification number.

I thought skeuopmorphism was dead.

In all seriousness, no one is going to take you seriously if you communicate in screeds like this.

AdamH

Quote from: Jacob Marley on 21 April 2017, 10:36:33 PM
Donald X once said something to the effect that "if this implementation doesn't work out, we will probably give up on online Dominion"

I don't remember this and I'm curious. Do you have a source?


LibraryAdventurer

I really like the new version (even though I haven't played it real often recently -I've just been busy with other things). So I hope you acknowledge that these are a matter of opinion.

-All of the background screens are official dominion card art except #10. You can type /bg 2 or /bg 3
up to /bg 9 to change the card art background picture. /bg 10 just shows a pattern if you don't want card art.

-The cards moving up and down (your #6) can be turned off with an option on the options screen (the "Move kingdom and play area" option).

The main thing I'm wishing for is more people playing unrated 'practice' games so I can ban the cards I don't like playing with, but that's a little thing and obviously Shuffleit can't help that most people want to play rated games.

trazoM

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
1) I should be able to play against more than one AI opponent at a time. If there's a way to do this, it's not obvious, and it should be. Don't tell me the point is to play other humans. Screw that. I can do that at home with my actual friends. Online, I like to play quick games to kill time during lunch at work and I have no patience for playing against an opponent who disappears for five minutes mid-game (and yes, that's happened more than once).
If you choose a matching, you always play against one bot. But you can create a table and add as many bots you want.

Quote5) A card like Pearl Diver gives me one option: Topdeck. Where is the Bottomdeck option? If it's there, it's again not clear. Why would that be hidden? (I know; you're supposed to ignore it and click the next card, but BAD UX. Cripes. These people wouldn't last ten minutes at the Google.)
Well, I like it that I just can play the next card. And the wording of the card does in fact not give you a "Bottomdeck-option". You may topdeck it, or you just dont.

Quote6) What is the point of the cards sliding up and down the screen when it's the other players' turns? Are there any other games that do this? Is there maybe a reason why is isn't a common design choice?
You can disable it. I like it. You did not tell us why you dislike it.

Quote7) I should be able to turn off the card sequence crap on the right. Sheesh, it looks like an IRC channel from 1995.
At the moment, the log is neccesary, because not all playoptions are available without it. I guess that will change in the future.

Quote8) All the card piles should be the same size, and the coin/VP stacks should be somewhere more central than the northwest corner.
I think it's fine. The VP/Money cards are always the same, the others seem more central to me.

Quote9) The background screens are ridiculous. They remind me of the DOS Tetris game I had as a kid, only that was some kind of a Russian circus. It doesn't make it look hi-tech; it makes it look cheesy.
You may change them by /bg x or even choose your favourite background in the settings.

yed

#9
Quote from: trazoM on 22 April 2017, 11:38:14 AM
Quote6) What is the point of the cards sliding up and down the screen when it's the other players' turns? Are there any other games that do this? Is there maybe a reason why is isn't a common design choice?
You can disable it. I like it. You did not tell us why you dislike it.
I think the point is that on 24' screen you can have space for cards in play both above and bellow kingdom cards.

AdamH

Quote from: JKRich on 22 April 2017, 05:07:53 AM
AdamH, look here: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=1024.msg3511#msg3511 (at end of post)

Thanks for the link. Here's the direct quote

Quote from: Donald X. on 08 January 2017, 06:27:17 AM
If things don't go well with Shuffle iT then I am not sure I am up for trying online Dominion again. Maybe I'm just that much of a sucker though; I can't predict the future.

Needless to say I'd be really sad if that happened. I do play quite a lot of IRL Dominion but I really really want there to be a good online client.

Ingix

Thanks knadles for telling what irks you. You may be off with a few guesses about reasons, and I think you are way off by saying that something is rubbish because it doesn't fit to your exact needs (play on a computer, play against an AI), but there are truths in what you say!

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
1) I should be able to play against more than one AI opponent at a time. If there's a way to do this, it's not obvious, and it should be.

Big cue that there are problems! A beginner will likely not deal with "New Table", if he even understands what this is about (I'm not sure why the "Table" metaphor isn't simply replaced with "Game", which seems much more understandable to me). He is on the Matching tab and will probably select "Computer Opponent", where a 2-player game will start. Maybe there could be a numerical selector to the right of the "Computer Opponent" button, indicating how many computer opponents play (text mockup)

Find a practice game i
    |Human Opponent|  |Computer Opponent|  1v  bots playing

where "1v" would be the same interface that currently selects the number of players once "New Table" is selected.

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
2) The display is ENORMOUS on my 24" monitor. I'm sure it looks fine on a phone, but it should be scalable or resizable or have a setting for max width.

So I'm not the only one that thinks that a standard layout for everything (including different aspect ratios and different resolutions) is not ideal.

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
4) "Autoplay treasures" makes no sense as a label. "Play all treasures" is more descriptive of what it actually does. "Autoplay" sounds like a setting that makes the treasures...well..autoplay.

Good catch about "Autoplay treasures". The problem is of course that it actually doesn't play all treasures, just the one it knows (or assumes) are safe to play without the player cursing "Why did you play Bank first and Contraband last?" Maybe it would be good to have some (simple) rules for all treasure cards such that the new "Play all treasures" button can actually play them without too much problems.

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
5) A card like Pearl Diver gives me one option: Topdeck. Where is the Bottomdeck option? If it's there, it's again not clear. Why would that be hidden? (I know; you're supposed to ignore it and click the next card, but BAD UX. Cripes)

I actually *like* the fact that some choices can be made implicetly by just clicking on the next card to play. I wish there were more places where this was implemented, when possible. But you are correct that an additional explict option ala "Put card back" would be good in this case.

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
8) All the card piles should be the same size, and the coin/VP stacks should be somewhere more central than the northwest corner.

Layout (and possible variations) need to be discussed, of course. It just seems that everyone has his own ideas of what the optimal layout would be.

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
10) End Turn should not be way off to the right. Fine if you're on a phone; it's a long haul if you're dragging a mouse pointer around the screen. Again...important = center and easy to reach.

It can be argued that putting a button with such an important decision with wide-ranging consequences should not be placed in a position where it can be accidentally clicked.

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM
I just want to play a few hands of Dominion while I eat my burrito dammit. Which is what I used to do. I'd pay for all the stuff again if the game didn't suck, but only once.

An "offline, pay once, keep forver" version was planned, IIRC. It may not arrive for many more months, though.

Jacob Marley

Thanks for the well though-out response.  This is the kind of specific feedback that can help improve the product.  However, while I agree with some of the points you raise, I disagree with this one:

Quote from: knadles on 22 April 2017, 12:37:20 AM

3) The hand of cards should look like a hand of cards, NOT stacks with a notification number. This rule can be negated when the hand reaches a certain unwieldy size. Visual cues are important. "The stack" is not a good visual cue. Again, I'm sure this was designed with a phone in mind, but the grownups have real computers.


The reason I like the current implementation of stacks, is that in makes for more ergonomic play.  For example, assume I have a hand of Chapel, 4x Curse (has happened irl).  Under the current implementation, my move is made thus:

Move mouse over chapel, click
Move mouse over curses, click 4 times

As opposed to your preferred method:
Move mouse over chapel, click
Move mouse over curse 1, click
Move mouse over curse 2, click
Move mouse over curse 3, click
Move mouse over curse 4, click
   
Regards

mrfiat

The original poster was nasty in his comments, but he does have some good points.  We were promised an Isotropic text interface when the ShuffleIT version was announced, but so far I haven't seen it?  The game play was so much better on Isotropic than on any of the three versions so far.  (no offense ShuffleIT guys)

I really wish the cards in my hand wouldn't move when my turn starts.  I'm ready to go as soon as my opponent finishes, so sometimes this causes misclicks.  Please change the interface so the cards don't move from the initial stack.  Thanks.