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Author Topic: 3P ratings when one player resigns?  (Read 1038 times)

Offline Dwedit

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3P ratings when one player resigns?
« on: 30 May 2017, 09:08:39 PM »
How are ratings impacted when one player resigns in a 3 player game?
I've seen most 3P games end by one player resigning rather than people finishing the game out.

Offline SkyHard

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #1 on: 31 May 2017, 06:41:15 AM »
As far as I saw, the player in lead (i.e. having the most VPs) at that moment wins.

Offline Wolfhere

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #2 on: 31 May 2017, 12:27:17 PM »
I would hope that it would continue as a two player game.  Otherwise, the player who resigns can effectively determine which of the other players is going to win.

Offline SkyHard

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #3 on: 31 May 2017, 12:47:41 PM »
I would hope that it would continue as a two player game.  Otherwise, the player who resigns can effectively determine which of the other players is going to win.

It does not.
I had it once, player 3 did not respond and was made resign. I had 1 VP and the other one 3. He won, we lost.

Online AdamH

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #4 on: 31 May 2017, 02:13:14 PM »
I assume that in a 3P game, there are three "matchups" taking place: A vs. B, B vs. C, and A vs. C. Each "matchup" is given a result based on final placement in the game, so if it goes:

first place: A
second place: B
third place: C

...then A wins both of her matchups and B wins his matchup against C.

Let's say C resigns. There aren't really ways to try and evaluate the A vs. B matchup. Each one will be flawed -- this includes just letting the game go as a 2P game, or subbing in a bot for the resigned player. These are all good options for fun, but in terms of a result on the leaderboard that has any integrity, that just can't happen unless C finishes out the game.

The only result I can think of that would be fair is to have C lose both of his matchups, and have the A vs. B matchup not exist -- not a tie, but have it not even count for anything.

Online Ingix

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #5 on: 31 May 2017, 02:33:48 PM »
AdamH's proposal seems to me very sensible and probably the best possible option under the circumstances.

Online AdamH

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #6 on: 31 May 2017, 05:00:06 PM »
AdamH's proposal seems to me very sensible and probably the best possible option under the circumstances.

I agree with you! :-D

but my method does assume that the leaderboard uses this type of "matchup" system to do ratings and doesn't so something else. If there's some other method of putting the results of 3P games onto a leaderboard that Shuffleit uses, I'm not able to make an intelligent comment on that.

Offline Ivers0n

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #7 on: 31 May 2017, 05:32:11 PM »
AdamH's proposal seems to me very sensible and probably the best possible option under the circumstances.
+1

Offline markus

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #8 on: 31 May 2017, 09:44:55 PM »
Not counting the other pair(s) results can be problematic as well: for example, people might resign when they're last and see that the active player has the win in hand. If you don't count the result between first and second then the player who was about to win, will not be amused. Even less so, if the 3rd and the 2nd are friends and it might seem that the 3rd does a favour to the 2nd.

In my opinion, the best solution would be to replace the resigned player with a bot of comparable strength, and give the other players the option to agree on ending the game. (which you might call a tie, but count as non existent for rating purposes) So if a plaer resigns early in the game, the other players might agree to tie. If someone thinks to be ahead, they can insist on a bot replacement (or on the other player to resign as well).

Online AdamH

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #9 on: 31 May 2017, 10:18:38 PM »
Not counting the other pair(s) results can be problematic as well: for example, people might resign when they're last and see that the active player has the win in hand. If you don't count the result between first and second then the player who was about to win, will not be amused. Even less so, if the 3rd and the 2nd are friends and it might seem that the 3rd does a favour to the 2nd.

This is a form of win trading, no? (I'm not super-clear on this terminology, maybe I have it wrong) This kind of thing can happen in 2P games as well -- there are ways to try and game the system no matter what and I assume it's up to the admins to remove these people from the leaderboard on a case-by-case basis.

As much as DXV tried to design politics out of Dominion, it's still there. This kind of thing can be done while operating within the rules of the game without even resigning. There's really no way around that and I assume that's why the 3P leaderboard is separate from the 2P leaderboard.


In my opinion, the best solution would be to replace the resigned player with a bot of comparable strength, and give the other players the option to agree on ending the game.

"a bot of comparable strength" doesn't currently exist, and I doubt it can ever exist. I haven't thought about whether your suggestion is best in theory, but I know it's not going to be practical :-(

Offline Stef

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #10 on: 01 June 2017, 12:19:43 AM »
There is one thing we can all agree on: the current situation is horrible. Declaring the player that has the most points at the resignation time the winner makes no sense.

The other thing we probably agree on is... it's complicated.

So let's try to do this: we spend the next 48 hours of discussing a practical solution, then get that implemented asap, and leave the discussion for perfect solutions for later.


Two things I want solved:
1) a better solution for the rating results when someone resigns in 3P.
2) stop, or at least significantly decrease - the number of resignations in 3P.

For 1) we've had some sensible suggestions already. Adams suggestion is certainly easy to implement; replacing with a bot is probably also doable but not clear it's preferable yet (also given current state of the bots).

For 2) I'd like to hear some more thoughts.
One suggestion is to put up a huge warning sign when you try to resign in 3P. "This will destroy the game for your opponents! do you really want to resign a 3 player game? It's considered bad sportsmanship". Personally I agree with those sentences, but wouldn't want to put them into the client unless it's already the opinion of a large percentage of the community.

In addition to warning signs we could keep track of all 3P games people play, and the percentage of games they resign. In the matchmaker add another option "max 3P resign % of opponents" and let people choose for themselves what they consider acceptable.

A final thought that is "for later": When I play IRL I would never resign in 3P. But what does happen is that when one of my opponents is clearly far ahead, I suggest to the other that we both resign and go on with the next game. We could consider such an option in the digital version, or would it cause more harm then good?

Offline markus

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #11 on: 01 June 2017, 01:34:38 AM »
This is a form of win trading, no? (I'm not super-clear on this terminology, maybe I have it wrong) This kind of thing can happen in 2P games as well -- there are ways to try and game the system no matter what and I assume it's up to the admins to remove these people from the leaderboard on a case-by-case basis.
With 2P you can help someone else only by sacrificing your own rating. If it's up to you to decide by resigning whether P2 and P3 tie or someone wins, it's more problematic I guess.

I think that for now you could count the loss due to resignation (in 3P) twice, i.e. instead of having a result between P2 and P3 they both get another win against the resigning player. That should discourage resigning, if you make the players aware of the punishment.

"Later" you could have a system in which players agree on an order for the game's outcome: everyone can suggest 1.-2.-3. (or ties) and if everyone accepts the game ends.

Online AdamH

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #12 on: 01 June 2017, 03:16:18 AM »
"Later" you could have a system in which players agree on an order for the game's outcome: everyone can suggest 1.-2.-3. (or ties) and if everyone accepts the game ends.

This is the only "OK" way to have resignation in a 3P game in my book. I've done it a couple of times IRL and it only makes sense when every player agrees to it. It also only makes sense when each player agrees on a placement for each player.

I'd say it's an important thing to have online, but if I'm being realistic, I just don't see that ever actually happening. There are certainly more important things to do.

Offline SkyHard

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #13 on: 01 June 2017, 07:20:14 AM »
For 2) I'd like to hear some more thoughts.
One suggestion is to put up a huge warning sign when you try to resign in 3P. "This will destroy the game for your opponents! do you really want to resign a 3 player game? It's considered bad sportsmanship". Personally I agree with those sentences, but wouldn't want to put them into the client unless it's already the opinion of a large percentage of the community.

I feel/fear that it would not help (a lot).

Another thought on resigning: if a player is taking too long (for whatever reason), he can be made to resign. If I am not mistaken, only one opponent needs to click yes and thus the player with the most VPs can take the win even if he has a poor engine.

Offline Accatitippi

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #14 on: 01 June 2017, 12:33:57 PM »
Adam's solution has merit because it's simple, but I personally wouldn't enjoy it much. I play to win, but I mostly play to play, and being forced to end an open game with no clear winner would annoy me almost as much as ending it with a arbitrary one (as it is now).

So, I think the best choice would be replacement by bot with the choice of jointly forfeiting the game.
In the meantime auto forfeit sounds ok.

Regarding the "dont resign plz" message, I think it's a good idea.
If the rating system rewards second place over third you might also want to add that to the message: hey, the game might be lost, but what about fighting for second?

And then the mandatory caveat: I never play 3p online, so I'm currently not the target demographic.