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Author Topic: 3P ratings when one player resigns?  (Read 1155 times)

Offline Polk5440

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #30 on: 06 June 2017, 08:16:32 PM »
"tl;dr": We don't include bot games on the 2P leaderboard -- what are the reasons for that, and why should they be different than 3P games?
Agreed. Bots are extra-exploitable opponents, so they shouldn't be ranked, so we still shouldn't rank them in multiplayer.

For the joy of finishing out the game, the best option if someone drops is to replace them with a bot. The bot may decide the game between the other two players due to its decisions; there's no avoiding that, it's in the nature of 3-player games. You could have the player drop out completely - or have a bot that just passed - but that's not finishing a 3-player game, that's playing a 3-player game that turned into a messed-up 2-player game. I have played that game! Having a different player (in this case a bot) take over is better.

Replacing with a bot is the solution I would most prefer, as well.

Regarding ratings, I can absolutely see an argument for allowing the complete game outcome after replacement with a bot count. Currently, the bot is very likely to buy Provinces/points when able pushing the game to a conclusion. It's not unreasonable to expect far behind players in multiplayer games to do this to speed things along, too. Would ignoring the final outcome of games with resignations that are finished with a bot give better rankings than not counting it? I don't think that's an obvious "yes", at all.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #31 on: 07 June 2017, 06:05:51 AM »
Regarding ratings, I can absolutely see an argument for allowing the complete game outcome after replacement with a bot count. Currently, the bot is very likely to buy Provinces/points when able pushing the game to a conclusion. It's not unreasonable to expect far behind players in multiplayer games to do this to speed things along, too. Would ignoring the final outcome of games with resignations that are finished with a bot give better rankings than not counting it? I don't think that's an obvious "yes", at all.
The idea isn't to do the best job of ranking the players in this situation; it's to make the players the happiest they can be.

Offline AdamH

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #32 on: 07 June 2017, 04:46:59 PM »
Regarding ratings, I can absolutely see an argument for allowing the complete game outcome after replacement with a bot count. Currently, the bot is very likely to buy Provinces/points when able pushing the game to a conclusion. It's not unreasonable to expect far behind players in multiplayer games to do this to speed things along, too. Would ignoring the final outcome of games with resignations that are finished with a bot give better rankings than not counting it? I don't think that's an obvious "yes", at all.
The idea isn't to do the best job of ranking the players in this situation; it's to make the players the happiest they can be.

I think the players should have the option to continue the game with a bot player, or to maybe start the game over as a 2P game in this case. Give them all the options, I don't think anyone disagrees on that.

After reading your posts, though, I'm actually unclear now on what your stance is with regard to the leaderboard. I think everyone agrees that the guy who resigned should lose his matchups against the other two players who didn't resign, but what about the matchup between the two remaining players? What leaderboard result should be recorded for that matchup? Some options I've seen suggested are:

1. The matchup is completely discarded (this is what I think should happen)
2. The matchup is counted as a draw
3. A game with a bot will determine the result of the matchup, with the bot's score/placement ignored
4. Same as (3), only the bot passes all of its turns and never buys/gains/plays anything
5. A new 2P game with the same kingdom is started and the result from that is used.
6. Players will have the option of continuing the game with a bot or (5). If they all choose the bot option, then (3) or (4). If there is no agreement, then (1) or (2). (or maybe only some of these options are presented to the players)

...Or maybe some variation on these.

I'm only talking about what the leaderboard shows for rated games, hopefully what I'm saying makes sense. I'm beginning to think that what's being discussed here is what players should do after someone resigns, independent of what is recorded on the leaderboard, which is why I'm asking this.

I remain convinced that to preserve the integrity of the leaderboard, only option (1) is acceptable. With the current bot, any options that involve a bot are pretty clearly awful to me. Granted, there are still bugs in the cards so the integrity of the leaderboard is already gone, but that's not an excuse to do the wrong thing here.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #33 on: 07 June 2017, 05:30:52 PM »
After reading your posts, though, I'm actually unclear now on what your stance is with regard to the leaderboard. I think everyone agrees that the guy who resigned should lose his matchups against the other two players who didn't resign, but what about the matchup between the two remaining players? What leaderboard result should be recorded for that matchup? Some options I've seen suggested are:

1. The matchup is completely discarded (this is what I think should happen)
I would record it as a win for each remaining player over the resigning player, and for the two remaining players, not record a result.

When a player out of contention swings the game, well that's what you get for playing with 3 players (which is not me knocking 3-player games; it's my preferred number of players). When a replacement bot swings the game, that's what you get for... that guy resigning. It's bad to feel punished for that.

Offline Stef

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #34 on: 07 June 2017, 06:32:32 PM »
I would record it as a win for each remaining player over the resigning player, and for the two remaining players, not record a result.

Yes this is very close to what I implemented on our dev server now. Only the original game was rated, the continuation is not. The original game only produces 2 results instead of the planned 3. The difference is that I count these wins for a bit more then just a regular win. Normal wins are counted as (1 0), ties counted as (0.5 0.5), and the plan now is to count these 3P-resignation-wins as (1.5 -0.5).

That will imply that in 3P resigning is worse for your ranking then losing, which is fine with me, and the two remaining players are both a bit compensated because they were deprived of the opportunity to score 2 wins in that game.

Offline AdamH

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #35 on: 07 June 2017, 06:51:26 PM »
1. The matchup is completely discarded (this is what I think should happen)
I would record it as a win for each remaining player over the resigning player, and for the two remaining players, not record a result.

OK it seems like we agree on everything. I had some doubt at some point but not anymore.

The original game only produces 2 results instead of the planned 3. The difference is that I count these wins for a bit more then just a regular win. Normal wins are counted as (1 0), ties counted as (0.5 0.5), and the plan now is to count these 3P-resignation-wins as (1.5 -0.5).

That will imply that in 3P resigning is worse for your ranking then losing, which is fine with me, and the two remaining players are both a bit compensated because they were deprived of the opportunity to score 2 wins in that game.

I don't mind punishing people for resigning 3P games, but how do you plan to punish people for resigning 3P games without also punishing people with a spotty internet connection, or people who get disconnected from games due to bugs in the software?

And giving 1.5 points to people is effectively the same thing as option (2) in my previous post (counting the remaining result as a tie for the players who didn't resign), unless I'm misunderstanding. I won't go into the list of reasons that I think that's not a good idea.

Offline Polk5440

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #36 on: 07 June 2017, 07:05:06 PM »
I would record it as a win for each remaining player over the resigning player, and for the two remaining players, not record a result.

Yes this is very close to what I implemented on our dev server now. Only the original game was rated, the continuation is not. The original game only produces 2 results instead of the planned 3. The difference is that I count these wins for a bit more then just a regular win. Normal wins are counted as (1 0), ties counted as (0.5 0.5), and the plan now is to count these 3P-resignation-wins as (1.5 -0.5).

That will imply that in 3P resigning is worse for your ranking then losing, which is fine with me, and the two remaining players are both a bit compensated because they were deprived of the opportunity to score 2 wins in that game.

Nice. I like the idea.

And giving 1.5 points to people is effectively the same thing as option (2) in my previous post (counting the remaining result as a tie for the players who didn't resign), unless I'm misunderstanding. I won't go into the list of reasons that I think that's not a good idea.

I think it's different, but it depends on how the rating recalculation is actually done. A tie between two people of different skill would bring their rankings closer together. Here, there is no calculation done between those two people.

(Unless I am misunderstanding)

Offline markus

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Re: 3P ratings when one player resigns?
« Reply #37 on: 07 June 2017, 09:52:43 PM »
Giving 1.5 approximately means that both players won the game, i.e. there's no 2nd place for ranking purposes. This is "paid" for by the resigning player who gets -0.5 for resigning instead of 0, when playing it out.

(More strictly speaking, it gives you an average win. So your opponent resigning makes you only worse off, if you were about to win AND you were the underdog amongst the two remaining players.)

I think it doesn't matter for the other players, whether I resign because of not bothering to play it out, internet connection problems, or personal life. If you know that your internet connection is fragile, you shouldn't start a 3p game with random people.