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Author Topic: Ban n Cards in Rated Games  (Read 1185 times)

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« on: 01 June 2017, 01:01:27 AM »
From a discussion on f.ds:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17265.msg696753#msg696753

Quote from: Donald X
Quote from: Limetime
I wish you could like ban 5 cards from rated games.
I agree, this continues to sound good to me. Players shouldn't have to play with cards they hate, even for the privilege of playing rated games. The only reason to not let you ban cards is to avoid gaming the system, and 5 cards doesn't give you much room to game the system, while going a long way towards letting you ban the cards you hate.

Any chance of this happening?

Offline JW

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #1 on: 01 June 2017, 02:07:33 AM »
If 5 cards is considered too drastic, I propose 3 cards as an alternative. For me, 5 cards isn't necessary, and I suspect other people have a small number of "most disliked" cards as well.

Offline SkyHard

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #2 on: 01 June 2017, 07:24:58 AM »
I like the idea. No, actually I love it. Please implement it ASAP! :-)

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #3 on: 01 June 2017, 07:17:13 PM »
I also like this idea.  I personally have 2 cards I would ban.

Offline yed

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #4 on: 01 June 2017, 07:54:04 PM »
I am against this proposal.

Online WhiteRabbit1981

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #5 on: 02 June 2017, 03:36:51 PM »
Everyone would ban Possession. Personally, i find heavy-possession games very amusing - noting beats Apprentice-ing a Colony without regrets  8)
So, this proposal would lock me out from playing with something like 90% of the playerbase.

Similar would happen to other love-or-hate cards. KingsCourt, Grand Market, Goons ....

Think about why you hate cards. My top-2 ban cards are "Wolf Den" and "Tax". I hate playing those, because they alter my playstyle too much. Being level 50-ish and not able to adapt to a TAX game is probably one of the reasons why i will never make it Top20. And it is also the reason why i should not be allowed to ban it!


Sidenote: I like Chess, but i dont like the knight because it moves so akwardly.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #6 on: 02 June 2017, 04:04:39 PM »
So, this proposal would lock me out from playing with something like 90% of the playerbase.
I'm not sure what you mean, but to be clear, matching wouldn't change at all; you just wouldn't have Possession show up when matched against someone who ban-listed it.

Sidenote: I like Chess, but i dont like the knight because it moves so akwardly.
You buy Scrabble. Turns out you don't like it. So you don't play it. Hooray, the system works.

You buy Alchemy. You don't like Possession. You don't have to play with it. You aren't all "I rue the day I bought Alchemy because now I have to play with Possession sometimes." You just don't play with that card you don't like.

You're playing online. Oops here's Possession. Ha ha, take that, customer.

It makes no sense to make people play with cards they don't like. Yes other people will then see those cards less often... exactly like in real life, where Joe speaks up and says "oh no I don't want to play with Possession, man, let's replace that one" and no-one says "suck it up Joe, besides we hate you."

isotropic had veto mode, where you would deal up 12 cards and then each player would veto one. I think that was bad, and that people came around there, did not end up liking it. Every game it would be, well there's one attack, I guess I ban that. The overall effect was like banning lots of cards; they could only show up if paired with worse cards. This isn't that. With veto mode maybe you'd be vetoing Militia for this game; you didn't put it on your 5-card ban list though.

Again I think the only concern with a 5-card ban list is gaming the system, and at 5 cards it's not a concern. The cards you don't get to see because so many people hate them, man, maybe I shouldn't have made those cards.

Online WhiteRabbit1981

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #7 on: 02 June 2017, 05:24:57 PM »
I understood that i can only be matched against players who have the same "dislikes" as i have. Of curse it makes more sense if possession would just not appear in the kingdom, i got that wrong.

I still love possession games, so thanks a lot that you made that card. I even liked it more in its 1st Edition style because of some interesting variants with VP-point gainers (you triple posses me? play all my bishops-fortresses). Then again, i just had a really great game with possession and capital where not paying back debt protected from successfull possessions.
Cutting out that special card everyone else hates would indeed make the game less enjoyable for me, because i would miss those strange interactive plays. And thats the reason i dont want a card-ban system and vote against it.

I understand noone should be forced to play something they dont like. If a game starts and pre-turn 1 my opponent chats something like "lets ban rebuild to avoid the mirror and have a more interesting game", i always agree. Of course, if i chat "lets ignore TAX and Wolf Den" it wouldnt affect the game too much  :o

In RL-games, we like to ban "shuffle-heavy" cards like Hunting Party or Scrying Pool. In online games, i would rather ban click-heavy spam cards like Moat in a Minion game.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #8 on: 02 June 2017, 06:42:13 PM »
I think banning cards you don't like is great for fun. I also think that the entire reason we have the pro leaderboard is because you can already do this in casual games. Adding this feature would completely defeat the purpose of rated games.

Even allowing one card to be banned in rated games would leave the pro leaderboard open to abuse, and I think this is largely due to the fact that so few people are playing at the moment: if I'm playing lots of rated games, there's a high chance I'll match against the same person over and over, so in between games I can go ban a card that I know they're good with (or much better than me with).

The pro leaderboard already has enough problems, and I think this exacerbates it for next to no benefit, since you can already play without the cards you dislike in unrated games.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #9 on: 02 June 2017, 07:30:49 PM »
Cutting out that special card everyone else hates would indeed make the game less enjoyable for me, because i would miss those strange interactive plays. And thats the reason i dont want a card-ban system and vote against it.
Well I mean. Sounds selfish! I don't need to pander to that.

For me, there are so many cards that didn't make it out, that someone might have loved. Maybe you would have loved the card that played all the attack cards from your deck. I killed it before you even got to try it. You still get to play with Possession IRL, or when the other player doesn't ban it. Count your blessings!

In the long run, if people couldn't agree on some ban list system and yet there was a card that most people hated, I would just have Stef ban it period. No joke!

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #10 on: 02 June 2017, 07:33:32 PM »
I think banning cards you don't like is great for fun. I also think that the entire reason we have the pro leaderboard is because you can already do this in casual games. Adding this feature would completely defeat the purpose of rated games.
In fact, and I cannot stress this enough, the entire purpose of rated games is fun. They're for people to enjoy, and that's it. You don't get fed better because you do well on the leaderboard! You don't get a better chair.

Even allowing one card to be banned in rated games would leave the pro leaderboard open to abuse, and I think this is largely due to the fact that so few people are playing at the moment: if I'm playing lots of rated games, there's a high chance I'll match against the same person over and over, so in between games I can go ban a card that I know they're good with (or much better than me with).
I am just so not seeing it.

The pro leaderboard already has enough problems, and I think this exacerbates it for next to no benefit, since you can already play without the cards you dislike in unrated games.
The benefit is not being forced to play with cards you hate if you want the joy of being ranked. It seems straightforward to me.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #11 on: 02 June 2017, 07:57:42 PM »
Cutting out that special card everyone else hates would indeed make the game less enjoyable for me, because i would miss those strange interactive plays. And thats the reason i dont want a card-ban system and vote against it.

I'd argue that when Possession does show up under such a system it's more likely to be appreciated by both players, leading to more of the interesting Possession games you like.

Think about why you hate cards. My top-2 ban cards are "Wolf Den" and "Tax". I hate playing those, because they alter my playstyle too much. Being level 50-ish and not able to adapt to a TAX game is probably one of the reasons why i will never make it Top20. And it is also the reason why i should not be allowed to ban it!

This, to me, is the most compelling counter-argument to the ban proposal.

Offline tracer

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #12 on: 02 June 2017, 11:08:14 PM »
Use of 3-5 cards is not the difference between a level 50 and a top 20 player.

Never seeing Possession again would make my life much more pleasant than never playing Dominion again, which is what I feel like would be a fine option after most of my games containing it.

Offline SkyHard

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #13 on: 02 June 2017, 11:35:07 PM »
I don't think I would put possession on my 5 baned card list. There are worse cards I don't enjoy playing with.
Rebuild would probably be on it: most of the time a boring game.
Wall and Torturer: the former because I hate it. The later because it often is frustrating to all but one of the players.
And probably Scrying Pool: I don't really get it and it is annoying if a Moat is in play.
I'll leave the last one open for future use. With a small tendancy toward Gladiator.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Ban n Cards in Rated Games
« Reply #14 on: 03 June 2017, 12:36:53 AM »
And probably Scrying Pool: I don't really get it and it is annoying if a Moat is in play.

Scrying Pool is definitely in mine. It's slow and annoying. I'd probably include Advisor for similar reasons.

But the nice thing about this list is that it's dynamic! You're not ripping up the cards forever.