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Author Topic: Show/Highlight which card [Urchin] is being trashed  (Read 2405 times)

Offline jacktrader

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Show/Highlight which card [Urchin] is being trashed
« on: 12 June 2017, 04:37:05 AM »
I had Prince'd a Urchin; and on a later turn later played 2 more urchins.

On the latter play, the game offered that I could trash an Urchin, and I said yes, Trash.
and was distraught to learn that the Prince'd Urchin was trashed !!
[and did not discover until next turn when the Prince-urchin was not played.]

I suggest that the offer to Trash a Urchin [or any card] should highlight it in the play area.




Offline Ingix

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Re: Show/Highlight which card [Urchin] is being trashed
« Reply #1 on: 12 June 2017, 02:31:05 PM »
This is another instance of the general problem that cards selected to have some "special treatment" (Urchin here, or with Scheme) are not identifiable on the game board.

It seems Duration cards are the top 'offenders' in that multiple can be in play that nevertheless have a different future (played this turn vs. played previous turn). Prince also creates a specially affected card, while Enchantress can remove the specialty of Duration cards.

If possible, I would suggest adding some number on the picture of those cards (Duration cards, Princed cards, Enchantressed cards) when they are in play and when they are selected for some special operation, so that players can identify which one is about to be affected.

Offline jacktrader

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Re: Show/Highlight which card [Urchin] is being trashed
« Reply #2 on: 17 June 2017, 09:05:04 PM »
Another approach (for urchin) would be to highlight (the colored border) and 'raise' them on the play area.
the message "you may trash an Urchin" but each of the highlighted/raised cards is a "button" click it to trash
(with the usual confirmation dialog)

Offline Ingix

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Re: Show/Highlight which card [Urchin] is being trashed
« Reply #3 on: 19 June 2017, 01:03:04 PM »
Having looked at a few cases (The original problem of a Princed Urchin + 2 more urchins; an Archive from last turn and an Archive from this turn) and in both cases the main problem is that the cards (Urchin/Archive) are shown in play as 'one card image with a count'. That means there are not multiple different cards shown that could be highlighted at different times (as Jacktrader explained), but one card is shown with a red count in the upper left corner. We've seen it all the time, it is also the way the cards in the supply are shown.

Of course, in a real game the 2 additional Urchins might have been played later that turn, so it might have been possible to identify the Princed one as the first Urchin to appear from the left among the cards in play. But with 2 Archives on the second and third turn in play it would be normal that they appear combined to one card with a count of 2. In that case, Scheming the one that would be discarded that turn is equally impossible to do by graphic means.

What would be needed IMO in such cases would be a button to change the way the cards in play are shown from the 'one card image with a count' model to a 'one image for each card, ordered by playing time stamp' model. Then the proposition from Jacktrader could be implemented, and a similar solution could be used in other cases (Scheme, Travelers, BonFire,...).

Offline dane

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Re: Show/Highlight which card [Urchin] is being trashed
« Reply #4 on: 21 June 2017, 08:43:11 AM »
I'm hesitant to make this suggestion as my experience is so far limited to having been reading this forum for the last six months and having played a mere handful of games (base set only) against bots, but might not a simpler option be to identify the Urchin precisely in the text that asks if one wants to trash it?  For example "Trash Urchin that was played by Prince?"

Things would be a bit more complicated for Scheme.  If the player clicked on card pile X and all cards in the pile were not equivalent, e.g. if one was there because it had been played by Prince, there would have to be a subsequent prompt to identify the precise card to be Schemed.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Show/Highlight which card [Urchin] is being trashed
« Reply #5 on: 21 June 2017, 01:34:25 PM »
This and a lot of similar problems would be taken care of if the option to disable card stacking in the play area was present.

Or at least if card stacking was applied in a more consistent way so that cards that were played as a result of different things weren't stacked. Like, if a card directs you to play another card (Throne Room, Golem, Prince, start-of-turn rules, etc.) then it appears obviously different in the display.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Show/Highlight which card [Urchin] is being trashed
« Reply #6 on: 21 June 2017, 03:47:41 PM »
I'm hesitant to make this suggestion as my experience is so far limited to having been reading this forum for the last six months and having played a mere handful of games (base set only) against bots, but might not a simpler option be to identify the Urchin precisely in the text that asks if one wants to trash it?  For example "Trash Urchin that was played by Prince?"

Don't hesitate to make suggestions, if there is something wrong with it, it will be pointed out, in a polite manner from my experience.

To your question: In this special case, probably. But since this is a general problem that affects more cards/combination of cards, I would personally more like a solution to the general problem. If we can then use additional clarifications (as you suggests), I'm all for it.

There are at least 3 different UIs that are used in 'select cards that get treated by an effect':

a) Purely textual in the log: Archive is done well (showing you all the options for all Archives, so you can plan), Urchin has the problem described when you play the 3rd or later, because then you are given 2 options of "may trash an Urchin from play", without knowing which one of the first two Urchins each line corresponds to.

b) Graphical by selection of the in-game representation of the card: Most effects that select cards to be discarded/trashed use this, and I *think* that using stacking is unproblematic for every zone except 'in-play'. For in-play selection cards like Scheme, Herbalist and Bonfire come to mind.

c) During Cleanup, cards like Travelers, Scheme, Treasury can create a long list of 'what to exchange/topdeck' effects, that are handled in a special graphical list. Again it is impossible to understand/influence which card is affected how in corner cases (I wanted to exchange one Traveler for the 'next version' and Scheme another copy of it, for example).

Possible solutions:

a) Cards affected by Prince and/or Enchantress should always be textually marked as such, Duration cards should have an additional info like "Amulet (this turn)" or "Amulet (last turn)" or "Archive (turn 13)". The first two versions would be use overwhelmingly, the latter is for the longer lasting ones. The same goes for Throne Rooms etc. that stay in play because they played Duration cards.
Alternatively, just use the "(turn XXX)" template for anything that isn't from the current turn.

b) Provide a *permanent* stacking/unstacking button for the in-play zone (next to View Trash/Undo/Resign), which always works and unstacks cards in play according to the time they were played. Then it is the player's responsibility to remember that the first played copy of Duration card X was affected by Enchantress, so he should Scheme that first played copy instead of the second played one.

c) Give the cards where multiple exist in play some number according to timestamp. In my 'Exchange one Traveler, Scheme the other' example above, I would first be prompted to choose the card to be Schemed. I unstack the cards and choose Traveler #1 to Scheme. Later, when the list of cards to exchange/topdeck comes, I would choose "Keep" for Traveler#1 and "Exchange" for Traveler #2.