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Author Topic: Players ARE CHEATING!  (Read 5791 times)

Offline IceHot

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Players ARE CHEATING!
« on: 20 July 2017, 01:30:05 AM »
1 player with 3 cards in hand in last game purchased the last Province after only playing a silver and copper with the other card still in hand.


Offline jsh

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #1 on: 20 July 2017, 01:35:45 AM »
http://dominion.lauxnet.com/scavenger/?user=IceHot&num_results=10

Please go here and tell us which game the 'cheating' happened in so we can figure out what happened. Odds are, the player had duration coin from the previous turn or coin tokens.

Edit: Found it. Game 5299852

Your opponent had 5 coin tokens saved from Candlestick Maker. No cheating there!

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #2 on: 20 July 2017, 05:32:30 AM »
The real bug here is that this information isn't displayed in the game log, so the only indication that this is happening is the short time that the actions/buys/coins box values change.

The game log really needs to display all information relevant to the game -- the problem here goes beyond getting bug reports that aren't actually bugs: people who aren't familiar with the quirks of the software are going to think the software doesn't work because they aren't being given all of the information they need to properly play the game. This is a huge deal.

This same thing happened from Qvist's perspective in this game #5297643 on the last turn, no coin tokens were involved. I was told this is a known bug but I don't recall reading about it here, so here it is again.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #3 on: 20 July 2017, 02:05:31 PM »
I'm all for having better interfaces and maybe a little more information in the log wouldn't hurt. But let's not confuse the issue: This game is AFAIK completely simulated server-side. Nobody can cheat in the sense that they play only 7 coin, shout "Watch out, a 3-headed monkey behind you!" and, while their opponent looks away, take a Province.

As jsh demonstrated, it is possible with the current tools to find out exactly what happened. There were coin tokens in the game. From the description, it looks like IceHot was not absent and AFK, otherwise how would he know that opponent still had a card in hand? He simply did not notice that opponent had accumulated coin tokens, it seems.

Again, of course it would be nice if the game log said something like "Player X converts 5 coin tokens into coins" in such a situation. But I take issue with your statement (which you voiced before) that this is a mayor bug.

If you are absent for opponent's turn and want to catch up, you have to look in two places: The log (so you see what he trashed, gained, a.s.o) and the information area for each player where you can clearly see how many coin tokens he has, how much debt, etc.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #4 on: 21 July 2017, 01:29:01 AM »
Again, of course it would be nice if the game log said something like "Player X converts 5 coin tokens into coins" in such a situation. But I take issue with your statement (which you voiced before) that this is a mayor bug.

I'm just going to straight-up disagree here. It's a huge pain to inspect the log and try to figure out what's happening, and it would be pretty much impossible to do if you aren't familiar with the game and you don't know the kinds of things you're looking for.

Sure, the game is being played out correctly, but I thought the whole point of this software was to make playing the game pleasant. If users can't tell what's happening, what's the point of having this software at all?

There seems to be a disconnect here between whoever is in charge of prioritizing tasks and the people who are actually using the software, and it's going to be difficult for Shuffleit to succeed while that disconnect is there. It's the user who decides what's important, not you or me.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #5 on: 21 July 2017, 09:40:48 AM »
The log is pretty clear on what happened: Opponent bought a Province (the last one) and ended the game. I'm not even sure if IceHot looked at the log (as I previously wrote, it seems to me that he looked at the 'live action' and was baffled on how 3 coin could buy a Province).  So it is not even clear if your proposal would have helped in this case.

It's another issue of how to treat game mechanics that a player may not be familiar with (like coin tokens). How would you make it clear to a player that has never seen cards using coin tokens what happened here? Maybe tooltips when hovering the mouse over the coin token display? But of course this would annoy player who already know what this is.

I'm not sure what to do, but to be also frank: I don't think an entry in the log would have helped in this case.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #6 on: 21 July 2017, 06:30:53 PM »
Again, of course it would be nice if the game log said something like "Player X converts 5 coin tokens into coins" in such a situation. But I take issue with your statement (which you voiced before) that this is a mayor bug.

I'm just going to straight-up disagree here. It's a huge pain to inspect the log and try to figure out what's happening, and it would be pretty much impossible to do if you aren't familiar with the game and you don't know the kinds of things you're looking for.

Sure, the game is being played out correctly, but I thought the whole point of this software was to make playing the game pleasant. If users can't tell what's happening, what's the point of having this software at all?

There seems to be a disconnect here between whoever is in charge of prioritizing tasks and the people who are actually using the software, and it's going to be difficult for Shuffleit to succeed while that disconnect is there. It's the user who decides what's important, not you or me.

(nods in agreement)

We can imagine a ridiculous scenario in which neither player sees anything his/her opponent does on his/her turn, and is left to infer what has happened based on minimal game state information.

"Oh, I have to discard two cards. I see from the supply that Militia is available, and there are 9 of them; I suppose my opponent played a Militia."

"There are two fewer provinces than there were just a second ago, I guess my opponent bought two of them."

I think we can all agree this would be a terrible way to play the game. But, in a few circumstances, this is essentially what is happening. Off the top of my head:

1) Bane reveals to Young Witch
2) Coin usage
3) Enchantress

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #7 on: 21 July 2017, 09:07:27 PM »
I'm not even sure if IceHot looked at the log (as I previously wrote, it seems to me that he looked at the 'live action' and was baffled on how 3 coin could buy a Province).

The log serves multiple purposes. It's an aid in-game and it's a way to look at games after-the-fact for reference. The log should be clear and useful in both of these cases -- saying that it's OK for one of them does not make the log good enough; it needs to be OK for both of them.

I'm not sure what to do, but to be also frank: I don't think an entry in the log would have helped in this case.

An entry in the log would have helped me, and I struggle to see how putting a line in whenever someone spends coin tokens doesn't help someone. If it really doesn't help you at all, OK let's say I believe you. Ask ten people who use this software if they would rather have that line appear in the log than not and if two or more of them say the log would be better off without it, I will eat my hat.

I really really really think you have this one wrong. The game log needs to display all information. What mode did they pick for Squire? How many actions/buys/coins do they have at the start of when they buy cards? Even if the game log wasn't vital for actually playing the game and knowing what is going on (which it currently is, and shouldn't be), the game log should still have all of this information in it.

Offline dane

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #8 on: 22 July 2017, 09:41:25 AM »
I'm not sure what to do, but to be also frank: I don't think an entry in the log would have helped in this case.

An entry in the log would have helped me, and I struggle to see how putting a line in whenever someone spends coin tokens doesn't help someone. If it really doesn't help you at all, OK let's say I believe you. Ask ten people who use this software if they would rather have that line appear in the log than not and if two or more of them say the log would be better off without it, I will eat my hat.

I think you have misunderstood the point that Ingix was making.  If you look back earlier in the thread, you'll see that he is of the opinion that the log should contain a line stating that X coins have been converted, so his comment "I don't think an entry in the log would have helped in this case" is certainly not suggesting that he thinks that such a line in the log is unnecessary.  Rather I believe he is of the opinion that in this case the player in question wouldn't have noticed the entry in the log and hence would still have been confused.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #9 on: 24 July 2017, 01:27:46 PM »
@Adam: Our fundamental differences seem to be what the log should be good/useful for. To me it should be useful while playing, both when recalling things that are public information and that I should remember, and when I was away and actually didn't see (say: What opponent gained last turn because I have a Smuggler in hand).

I think that the log is not (and should not be) the way to analyze a turn. It would be much better if the ability to load the game could be expanded to allow a game to be seamlessly replayed, with the board state and both player's hands visible at all times, as well as the current actions/buys/coins, etc.

Of course, this ability does not exist (and may never be) and the log is all you have now to do that analysis. Would it be better if it gave choices like Actions/Buys/Silver for Squire? Yes, it would be. Is it necessary when the actual game is in progress? I do not think so.

Again, I do not think that a log line saying "5 coin tokens are converted to coins" would have helped in this case, but you are right it wouldn't have hurt.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #10 on: 24 July 2017, 03:41:27 PM »
@Adam: Our fundamental differences seem to be what the log should be good/useful for. To me it should be useful while playing

[...]

I think that the log is not (and should not be) the way to analyze a turn.

Do you not analyze turns while playing? If not, I'd recommend it, you will play much better. I'm being a little bit sarcastic, because I think you mean something else by "analyze a turn" and I don't quite know what you're getting at.

All of the information about what my opponent did during their turn (that I'm legally allowed to know) should be available to me in a manner that's easy for me to parse. I should be able to blink during my opponent's turn and not have to spend five minutes and figure out a puzzle about the kingdom in order to know what happened. If what you mean by "analyze a turn" is making the game take really long by studying the game log and doing precise calculations, then having extra information in the game log would actually help with this instead of hurt it; I spend less time wondering about what my opponent did, and I just get to think about the things related to Dominion gameplay.

Needless to say, this goes for my turns as well. If I click somewhere and it does something that I wasn't expecting, or if I'm confused about what is happening in the game, it should be clear to me what's going on. The client is pretty good about this except for the game log IMO.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #11 on: 25 July 2017, 03:15:53 PM »
Do you not analyze turns while playing? If not, I'd recommend it, you will play much better. I'm being a little bit sarcastic, because I think you mean something else by "analyze a turn" and I don't quite know what you're getting at.

Here I meant with "analyze a turn" a post-game analysis of what happened. For a player that has never seen this, understanding how playing lot's of Worker's Village and Goons, and having a single Watchtower, can create big amount of vp tokens in a single turn, is probably illuminating about the power of Goons.

Quote
All of the information about what my opponent did during their turn (that I'm legally allowed to know) should be available to me in a manner that's easy for me to parse. I should be able to blink during my opponent's turn and not have to spend five minutes and figure out a puzzle about the kingdom in order to know what happened.

And I don't think you need to do that (the puzzling part), if you trust the game to be bug free (which of course it isn't).

Your opponent bought a Province, let's just assume that he had the coins to do so, and not focus on counting his Militia plays and Peddler plays to figure out why playing just a Silver was enough. Neither card mentioned anything about creating coins, for example.

Similarly, trust that the game takes correctly care of counting the available actions/buys, so when your blink is over and he has 3 coins, 2 actions and 3 buys, focus on that information instead of figuring out how he had to play his 3 Squires to get that. If you want to do that later, then that falls into the post-game analysis category.


Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #12 on: 25 July 2017, 05:00:04 PM »
Here I meant with "analyze a turn" a post-game analysis of what happened. For a player that has never seen this, understanding how playing lot's of Worker's Village and Goons, and having a single Watchtower, can create big amount of vp tokens in a single turn, is probably illuminating about the power of Goons.

OK I understand what you mean now, it's very clear. So then you said this before:

I think that the log is not (and should not be) the way to analyze a turn. It would be much better if the ability to load the game could be expanded to allow a game to be seamlessly replayed, with the board state and both player's hands visible at all times, as well as the current actions/buys/coins, etc.

and well I just straight-up disagree with the bolded part. What you suggest is a cool feature and would be great, but it's not a reason that the game logs shouldn't also be able to stand on their own as a text-only way to analyze games after they are done. That would also be a really useful feature and I think both should exist.


Similarly, trust that the game takes correctly care of counting the available actions/buys, so when your blink is over and he has 3 coins, 2 actions and 3 buys, focus on that information instead of figuring out how he had to play his 3 Squires to get that. If you want to do that later, then that falls into the post-game analysis category.

So even if I trust the game and it's actually bug-free, focusing on just this information isn't enough, even during the game. With this example, it can be very helpful to know how many Squires my opponent is playing for Actions or for Buys because then I can accurately judge the terminal space of their deck or know how many gains they can threaten on their turns; this requires more knowledge than just the Actions/Buys/Coins counter, so I actually have to do that puzzling.

In a perfect world, every time anything happens at all in the game, it would appear in the game log. Actions, Buys, Coins, and cards drawn all have lines in the log when they are given out by cards (yes it's redundant for some cards like Woodcutter but it's extremely important for cards like Minion or Squire or actually almost all Dominion cards that don't give you exactly the same thing every time you play them) and it's all color-coded and indented as well to improve readability. And I still maintain that a line in the game log at the beginning of every Buy phase that displays remaining actions, buys, and coins would be really helpful both during and after games.

I feel like all of the information should be available to people, and if individuals decide that there's too much information, then there can be configurable options to automatically collapse certain types of information in the game log.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #13 on: 26 July 2017, 04:28:03 PM »
I reordered some statements, because I think they belong together:
In a perfect world, every time anything happens at all in the game, it would appear in the game log. Actions, Buys, Coins, and cards drawn all have lines in the log when they are given out by cards (yes it's redundant for some cards like Woodcutter but it's extremely important for cards like Minion or Squire or actually almost all Dominion cards that don't give you exactly the same thing every time you play them) and it's all color-coded and indented as well to improve readability.

<rerordered>

I feel like all of the information should be available to people, and if individuals decide that there's too much information, then there can be configurable options to automatically collapse certain types of information in the game log.

And now we are again in the distinction between "nice to have" (which the above certainly is) and "The real bug here is that this information isn't displayed in the game log" and the reality of such an (IMO) massive change being implemented.

I also have to say that I didn't understand your "accurately judge the terminal space of their deck" example, because I'm just not a good enough player to see the relevance.

Quote
And I still maintain that a line in the game log at the beginning of every Buy phase that displays remaining actions, buys, and coins would be really helpful both during and after games.

Besides Villa and that one Tournament prize, what is the action count at that moment good for? If they played their whole hand, it may give you information, but if they kept a few cards in hand...?

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #14 on: 26 July 2017, 06:35:40 PM »
I also have to say that I didn't understand your "accurately judge the terminal space of their deck" example, because I'm just not a good enough player to see the relevance.

Quote
And I still maintain that a line in the game log at the beginning of every Buy phase that displays remaining actions, buys, and coins would be really helpful both during and after games.

Besides Villa and that one Tournament prize, what is the action count at that moment good for?

Both of these things are answered by the same concept. "Terminal space" is one of many things I just made up, but then I saw a bunch of other people using the term and assumed it was clear exactly what it meant.

I defined "terminal space" as the number of terminal actions you can expect to play on your turn. If you're drawing your deck, you can usually calculate this pretty easily. It's useful because it's one of many metrics you can use to gauge the capabilitity of your opponent's deck.

Why is it a useful thing to know? The trivial example is that I play a Swindler and now I have the opportunity to give my opponent a village, a non-terminal, a terminal, a treasure, etc. and I want to know which one is least useful to them. If they are "over-terminaled" or "don't have enough terminal space" or "have too many terminals" then I want to give them a terminal. If they're being the "village idiot" then I'll just give them another village.

But knowing the exact capabilities of your opponent's deck is crucial to being able to properly play an endgame. If they have extra terminal space then I know they can add terminal payload to their deck and have higher capabilities that I now have to play around. If they don't have extra terminal space and villages are out, I know their deck is limited in its potential. It can even have insights into how well their deck is running, since some cards can be played for other benefits besides actions. It's hard for me to tell how many of their Squires are being played for Actions when that information could be very relevant (they played a Squire for buys they didn't use, but they could have played it for actions instead, so they have more terminal space than is showing -- this is why having lines in the game log when these types of choices are made is very important).

All of this is strategically useful, but probably the most common use case is that I just want a concise summary of my opponent's turn, and right now all of the information I need to get that summary isn't there if I didn't catch it on my opponent's turn.

If they played their whole hand, it may give you information, but if they kept a few cards in hand...?

You make a good point. Number of cards left in hand would be great to know as well.

Offline -dg-

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #15 on: 27 July 2017, 06:49:15 PM »
Just to throw another point of view on cheating in the ring here...

I know that playing Dominion online and playing Dominion in real life (IRL) are two totally different things.
But there's a part of me that really wishes it were possible - just as an option - to emulate the IRL experience online.

Case in point - the log and the VP counter.

As I understand it, the reason that the VP counter is always on is that because the log is always 100% visible all of the time. There's nothing stopping a player from simply going back through it and counting up the points themselves during a game. And that makes some sense.

However, I feel that using a VP counter kinda violates the spirit of the game - kinda like cheating. IRL, the game is played by humans sitting at a table with no notebooks or record-keeping. It's up to the players themselves to keep track of what's going on during the game, turn by turn.
Part of the fun of certain VP cards/landmarks is that there is practically no way for one to know what their or their opponents' score is, other than a rough guess. (think Vineyard, Museum, Fairgrounds, Fountain, etc) I'm not saying it's impossible to keep track, but unless you've got a very good memory, it's not that easy.

I think it is critically important to have a thorough log of exactly what a player did on his last turn readily visible to all other players, because sometimes people play super-fast ("what the hell did they just do?") or sometimes you have to step away from the game for a moment ("okay, what did I miss?").
But to be able to scroll all the way back thorough to the beginning of a game while that game is still in progress - I think that violates the spirit of the game.

I don't think it's impossible or unreasonable for the log to only show the actions of the previous turn - in specific detail, to the other folks on this thread's points - and to keep the remainder of the game (from the turn before last through to the beginning of the game) hidden until the end of the game. In fact, I feel like I might have seen this in an earlier online iteration of the game in the past...

Long story short, I think the log should be as rich and detailed as possible (for post-game analysis), but during the game it should only be used for seeing what your opponent(s) did during their last turn.
And in the case where both players decide that they want to be able to look back through to the beginning of the game (or they both agree to cheat), then that should be allowed, as an option.
But I don't think it should be the default way to play, as it is now.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #16 on: 27 July 2017, 07:10:18 PM »
I agree with you, I should also add that in games with Masquerade and more than two players, VP counter should always be disabled, no matter what, regardless of player preference. I remember mentioning that a long time ago and it was ignored, as it probably will also be ignored here.

Offline yed

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #17 on: 27 July 2017, 07:21:32 PM »
I disagree.

Offline jsh

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #18 on: 27 July 2017, 07:24:43 PM »
I think no point counter should be an option, but if I had to play that way again I'd probably stop playing.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #19 on: 27 July 2017, 07:43:59 PM »
I disagree.

Do you have any justification for this?

Offline fisherman

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #20 on: 27 July 2017, 07:56:22 PM »
I disagree.

Do you have any justification for this?

Well, I'm not sure why disregarding player preference would be an improvement. If three people want to play a Masquerade game with the point tracker, why not let them have their fun?


Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #21 on: 27 July 2017, 08:58:31 PM »
umm, because the game rules don't allow it? Why is the online client supporting this variant and not any of the other million variants that some people use?

Offline jsh

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #22 on: 27 July 2017, 09:12:02 PM »
umm, because the game rules don't allow it? Why is the online client supporting this variant and not any of the other million variants that some people use?

Didn't Donald X himself already say he was okay with point counters in the online version? This seems like a really pointless argument. There should just be an option to play with or without and that's the end of it. Everyone can choose which one they want and everyone's happy.

This whole discussion has gotten way off topic too.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #23 on: 27 July 2017, 09:37:22 PM »
umm, because the game rules don't allow it? Why is the online client supporting this variant and not any of the other million variants that some people use?

Didn't Donald X himself already say he was okay with point counters in the online version? This seems like a really pointless argument. There should just be an option to play with or without and that's the end of it. Everyone can choose which one they want and everyone's happy.

I remember something like this but I kind of thought the 3+ Player Masquerade thing was an exception since it definitely goes against what the card does. I thought the DXV quote was a justification for point counter being available at all on the online client. I don't remember if there was an opinion on whether or not VP counter should be enabled by default.

This whole discussion has gotten way off topic too.

lol

Offline yed

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #24 on: 27 July 2017, 10:07:58 PM »
I disagree.

Do you have any justification for this?

My preference is point counter ON as default.

Otherwise there will be extensions with point counter anyway and you won't know if your opponent has one.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #25 on: 27 July 2017, 10:20:20 PM »

My preference is point counter ON as default.

Otherwise there will be extensions with point counter anyway and you won't know if your opponent has one.

I was going to say the same thing. There is no way to prevent point tracking, either automated or manual, by your unseen opponent.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #26 on: 28 July 2017, 05:35:14 AM »
These are reasons why having an in-client point counter available as an option would be a good idea.

I don't understand why these reasons mean that the default option should be to have the VP counter on.

The game rules are pretty clear about what is allowed in the game, I don't see any reason why the default behavior of the online app shouldn't get as close as possible to the game rules.

Offline yed

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #27 on: 28 July 2017, 07:21:50 AM »
I want point counter on for automatch so that the player base is not divided.

Offline -dg-

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #28 on: 28 July 2017, 09:45:26 AM »
Assuming that the goal is to try to maintain the spirit of the IRL game, I think a reasonable compromise would look something like this:

In the Automatch settings, there should be a choice for VP counter preference. You could have the option of choosing one of several preferences - "never use a counter ever", "only use a counter if everyone else wants to", and "always use a counter", along with a default setting ("always", "never", and "I don't care"), which would help to manage those conditions.

My guess is that the average online Dominion player - not the sort that participate in these kinds of discussions - wouldn't miss the VP counter being on by default, since again, it's not really part of the IRL game.
And obviously, those that do want it, can easily have it.

The real key to making that experience work, however, would be to implement the "last turn only" mode in the log (along with the more verbose/detailed ideas that were mentioned earlier in the thread).

Offline Ingix

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #29 on: 28 July 2017, 01:54:26 PM »
The game rules are pretty clear about what is allowed in the game, I don't see any reason why the default behavior of the online app shouldn't get as close as possible to the game rules.

As a side note, the game rules also say that when you discard a bunch of cards at once (e.g.: Cellar), your opponent only gets to see the top card in your discard pile. This rule is painstakingly taken care of in the log ('XXX discarded 3 cards and an Estate') and AFAIK also in the animations. But nobody ever mentioned or complained that they cannot actually choose that card which gets 'shown' to their opponents.

As yet another thing, if I play Village, then Torturer IRL, you may discard down to 3, but still Moat my Witch. IRL, I do not know if you have Moat after the Torturer is handled. In the online version, if I get to draw my three Torturer cards immediately I know you have no Reaction card. If I don't, then I know you have one, even if you decide not to use it at that point in time.

Of course, this is on a different 'affects gameplay'-level than (not) having point counters, but it seems that most people go with the 'ease of use'. But you are right, having no point counters as an option should be possible.


Offline markus

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #30 on: 28 July 2017, 02:52:59 PM »
But nobody ever mentioned or complained that they cannot actually choose that card which gets 'shown' to their opponents.
It's the card you click last. But as far as I know, you can't influence which card from your hand ends up on top of the discard pile in clean-up. This sometimes gives away terminal collision on turn 3 or so.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #31 on: 28 July 2017, 03:43:28 PM »
The game rules are pretty clear about what is allowed in the game, I don't see any reason why the default behavior of the online app shouldn't get as close as possible to the game rules.

As a side note, the game rules also say that when you discard a bunch of cards at once (e.g.: Cellar), your opponent only gets to see the top card in your discard pile. This rule is painstakingly taken care of in the log ('XXX discarded 3 cards and an Estate') and AFAIK also in the animations. But nobody ever mentioned or complained that they cannot actually choose that card which gets 'shown' to their opponents.

I talked about it here in terms of cards in players' hands. From a user's perspective it's exactly the same issue.

As yet another thing, if I play Village, then Torturer IRL, you may discard down to 3, but still Moat my Witch. IRL, I do not know if you have Moat after the Torturer is handled. In the online version, if I get to draw my three Torturer cards immediately I know you have no Reaction card. If I don't, then I know you have one, even if you decide not to use it at that point in time.

My opponent plays a Gladiator, revealing a Silver. I don't have a Silver in my hand, the info box says "pretend to think"

I have a couple of questions about this:

1. Lots of trivial decisions where there is only one option are made for me automagically, why not this one? I mean, every time my opponent plays an attack and I don't have a Moat in hand (Moat is on the board, let's say) I'm assuming I don't get the chance to pretend to think here. I think this is one of those decisions that can easily be made for you.

2. Let's say you decide to keep this the way it is: I don't think "pretend to think" is the right thing to put in that info box. That box has been extremely helpful for me to figure out where things are; notably in that when I don't know what's happening, I know I can look at that box and have it tell me where on the screen to look to respond to whatever is happening. "Pretend to think" doesn't accomplish this.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #32 on: 28 July 2017, 04:04:35 PM »
I didn't read much from before the public start of the game, under the assumption that what was said about the beta version might not be relevant for the "1.0" version. Of course, as with all software, changes often need lots of effort to implement.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #33 on: 28 July 2017, 06:38:49 PM »
I didn't read much from before the public start of the game, under the assumption that what was said about the beta version might not be relevant for the "1.0" version. Of course, as with all software, changes often need lots of effort to implement.

Is there some kind of database that holds all of the improvements people have suggested here? A lot of these types of suggestions that I and other people have made are really important, even if they are complex issues. Who is the one that decides which suggestions are just tossed aside and ignored?