Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Players ARE CHEATING!  (Read 999 times)

Offline -dg-

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #15 on: 27 July 2017, 06:49:15 PM »
Just to throw another point of view on cheating in the ring here...

I know that playing Dominion online and playing Dominion in real life (IRL) are two totally different things.
But there's a part of me that really wishes it were possible - just as an option - to emulate the IRL experience online.

Case in point - the log and the VP counter.

As I understand it, the reason that the VP counter is always on is that because the log is always 100% visible all of the time. There's nothing stopping a player from simply going back through it and counting up the points themselves during a game. And that makes some sense.

However, I feel that using a VP counter kinda violates the spirit of the game - kinda like cheating. IRL, the game is played by humans sitting at a table with no notebooks or record-keeping. It's up to the players themselves to keep track of what's going on during the game, turn by turn.
Part of the fun of certain VP cards/landmarks is that there is practically no way for one to know what their or their opponents' score is, other than a rough guess. (think Vineyard, Museum, Fairgrounds, Fountain, etc) I'm not saying it's impossible to keep track, but unless you've got a very good memory, it's not that easy.

I think it is critically important to have a thorough log of exactly what a player did on his last turn readily visible to all other players, because sometimes people play super-fast ("what the hell did they just do?") or sometimes you have to step away from the game for a moment ("okay, what did I miss?").
But to be able to scroll all the way back thorough to the beginning of a game while that game is still in progress - I think that violates the spirit of the game.

I don't think it's impossible or unreasonable for the log to only show the actions of the previous turn - in specific detail, to the other folks on this thread's points - and to keep the remainder of the game (from the turn before last through to the beginning of the game) hidden until the end of the game. In fact, I feel like I might have seen this in an earlier online iteration of the game in the past...

Long story short, I think the log should be as rich and detailed as possible (for post-game analysis), but during the game it should only be used for seeing what your opponent(s) did during their last turn.
And in the case where both players decide that they want to be able to look back through to the beginning of the game (or they both agree to cheat), then that should be allowed, as an option.
But I don't think it should be the default way to play, as it is now.

Offline AdamH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #16 on: 27 July 2017, 07:10:18 PM »
I agree with you, I should also add that in games with Masquerade and more than two players, VP counter should always be disabled, no matter what, regardless of player preference. I remember mentioning that a long time ago and it was ignored, as it probably will also be ignored here.

Offline yed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #17 on: 27 July 2017, 07:21:32 PM »
I disagree.

Offline jsh

  • Nocturne Tester
  • *
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #18 on: 27 July 2017, 07:24:43 PM »
I think no point counter should be an option, but if I had to play that way again I'd probably stop playing.

Offline AdamH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #19 on: 27 July 2017, 07:43:59 PM »
I disagree.

Do you have any justification for this?

Offline fisherman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #20 on: 27 July 2017, 07:56:22 PM »
I disagree.

Do you have any justification for this?

Well, I'm not sure why disregarding player preference would be an improvement. If three people want to play a Masquerade game with the point tracker, why not let them have their fun?


Offline AdamH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #21 on: 27 July 2017, 08:58:31 PM »
umm, because the game rules don't allow it? Why is the online client supporting this variant and not any of the other million variants that some people use?

Offline jsh

  • Nocturne Tester
  • *
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #22 on: 27 July 2017, 09:12:02 PM »
umm, because the game rules don't allow it? Why is the online client supporting this variant and not any of the other million variants that some people use?

Didn't Donald X himself already say he was okay with point counters in the online version? This seems like a really pointless argument. There should just be an option to play with or without and that's the end of it. Everyone can choose which one they want and everyone's happy.

This whole discussion has gotten way off topic too.

Offline AdamH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #23 on: 27 July 2017, 09:37:22 PM »
umm, because the game rules don't allow it? Why is the online client supporting this variant and not any of the other million variants that some people use?

Didn't Donald X himself already say he was okay with point counters in the online version? This seems like a really pointless argument. There should just be an option to play with or without and that's the end of it. Everyone can choose which one they want and everyone's happy.

I remember something like this but I kind of thought the 3+ Player Masquerade thing was an exception since it definitely goes against what the card does. I thought the DXV quote was a justification for point counter being available at all on the online client. I don't remember if there was an opinion on whether or not VP counter should be enabled by default.

This whole discussion has gotten way off topic too.

lol

Offline yed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #24 on: 27 July 2017, 10:07:58 PM »
I disagree.

Do you have any justification for this?

My preference is point counter ON as default.

Otherwise there will be extensions with point counter anyway and you won't know if your opponent has one.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 148
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #25 on: 27 July 2017, 10:20:20 PM »

My preference is point counter ON as default.

Otherwise there will be extensions with point counter anyway and you won't know if your opponent has one.

I was going to say the same thing. There is no way to prevent point tracking, either automated or manual, by your unseen opponent.

Offline AdamH

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #26 on: 28 July 2017, 05:35:14 AM »
These are reasons why having an in-client point counter available as an option would be a good idea.

I don't understand why these reasons mean that the default option should be to have the VP counter on.

The game rules are pretty clear about what is allowed in the game, I don't see any reason why the default behavior of the online app shouldn't get as close as possible to the game rules.

Offline yed

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #27 on: 28 July 2017, 07:21:50 AM »
I want point counter on for automatch so that the player base is not divided.

Offline -dg-

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #28 on: 28 July 2017, 09:45:26 AM »
Assuming that the goal is to try to maintain the spirit of the IRL game, I think a reasonable compromise would look something like this:

In the Automatch settings, there should be a choice for VP counter preference. You could have the option of choosing one of several preferences - "never use a counter ever", "only use a counter if everyone else wants to", and "always use a counter", along with a default setting ("always", "never", and "I don't care"), which would help to manage those conditions.

My guess is that the average online Dominion player - not the sort that participate in these kinds of discussions - wouldn't miss the VP counter being on by default, since again, it's not really part of the IRL game.
And obviously, those that do want it, can easily have it.

The real key to making that experience work, however, would be to implement the "last turn only" mode in the log (along with the more verbose/detailed ideas that were mentioned earlier in the thread).

Offline Ingix

  • Nocturne Tester
  • *
  • Posts: 309
    • View Profile
Re: Players ARE CHEATING!
« Reply #29 on: 28 July 2017, 01:54:26 PM »
The game rules are pretty clear about what is allowed in the game, I don't see any reason why the default behavior of the online app shouldn't get as close as possible to the game rules.

As a side note, the game rules also say that when you discard a bunch of cards at once (e.g.: Cellar), your opponent only gets to see the top card in your discard pile. This rule is painstakingly taken care of in the log ('XXX discarded 3 cards and an Estate') and AFAIK also in the animations. But nobody ever mentioned or complained that they cannot actually choose that card which gets 'shown' to their opponents.

As yet another thing, if I play Village, then Torturer IRL, you may discard down to 3, but still Moat my Witch. IRL, I do not know if you have Moat after the Torturer is handled. In the online version, if I get to draw my three Torturer cards immediately I know you have no Reaction card. If I don't, then I know you have one, even if you decide not to use it at that point in time.

Of course, this is on a different 'affects gameplay'-level than (not) having point counters, but it seems that most people go with the 'ease of use'. But you are right, having no point counters as an option should be possible.