The public message about "slow playing"

[jeebus]

I read the message and I thought great, everything sounds fantastic. Well, except... "Slow playing" is defined a little vaguely and I hope nobody reads it and thinks it means just playing slower than they would like...

Ok, I started playing, and sure enough, on my third game (of course when it looked like I was going to win) my opponent starting complaining that I was too slow. The last turn I had drawn my deck and there was Pligrimage, so I had used a minute or two to think. Before then I had played at the same speed as my opponent. They referred to the message about "slow playing", said that I surely always played like this, and was going to blacklist me.

Of course I already sometimes encounter these kinds of people, but I think the vagueness in the message will legitimize their thinking (for them). I don't know if there is anything to be done about this, but is it possible to be more clear about what "slow playing" actually means?

[Stef]

Maybe not the kind of answer you're looking or, but you could type in chat "thinking" when you need to take a while during a game.

At least that's what I do myself, and it feels like a polite thing to do that would prevent this kind of misunderstanding.

[AdamH]

I thought the message was worded well enough, just my two cents, and I realize I'm probably one of the more skeptical people around here.

I actually am impressed with the system message feature, it looks pretty good. I have a couple of questions/suggestions:

1. Is there any way for me to view my system messages in the client, after the first time they come up? I looked in all of the tabs and I couldn't find one. There was a button that said "mark as read" and another one that said "delete" which kind of implies I'd be able to look at them somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

If you can't look at old system messages, then I'd suggest combining these two buttons into one button that just says "done" or something similar. Also, it would be nice if there was a thread in the announcements subforum that just had a copypasta of those system messages and when they were pushed out. I feel like having this viewable will prevent some potential future issues, regardless of whether or not there's a way to view them in-client.

2. Is there any chance that there could be a system message that functions as a tutorial or FAQ for first-time logins? It could contain links to several things including:

- rules of the game
- how to start a game
- how to buy expansions and what subscriptions mean (perhaps with some words on how to recover what you have from an MF account if you had one)
- how to use familiar cards (and an explanation of the default settings for that feature which have caused a lot of confusion)

It should also link to an FAQ like the one on these forums (only hopefully kept up-to-date) and a list of known issues with the software (also kept up-to-date). If these aren't going to be kept up-to-date, then at least updating them once when the system message is pushed out (and putting a "last updated" date on it, which corresponds with the system message) would go a long way.

It's probably implementation-dependent, but maybe just pushing a message like this out to everyone will do the trick? I don't think it's a big deal for people who already have accounts to see this tutorial message.

3. Will there be a system message every time an update is released? If that's not planned, I'd recommend having one.


I'm actually really hopeful about this. Use of this feature will solve a TON of issues with the "new player experience" that Shuffleit has been really hurting on so far, and it can be online much sooner than a lot of the more complex issues facing the development team.

[jsh]

We are actually working on #2 now.

[markus]

You can see the message again if you click on Inbox on the bottom right - unless you deleted it before.

[Cave-O-Sapien]

We are actually working on #2 now.

Would it be possible to indicate when a forum user is a ShuffleIt staff member (in any capacity)? Aside from Stef, I have no idea who is involved in this venture, yet there are quite a few people whose language implies they have some official role.

[jsh]

To be clear, "we" here refers to a group of volunteers working on text stuff like the faq; volunteers include translators and play testers as well. Anybody who actually works for shuffle it will likely have admin status on these forums.

[AdamH]

A distinction for you guys would be helpful, even (especially) if it's different than what the actual Shuffleit staff has.

[santamonica811]

I appreciate the post and that steps are being taken to address a serious issue.  (I guess I have been very lucky...never encountered a slow player, while others seem to run into them quite often, which would be very frustrating indeed.)

What I did NOT like was the thought that using the lightning bolt is being used as a signal to your guys to investigate the other person.  Up till now, I have been using the lightning bolt to merely prevent the game from matching me up with that player in the future.  That is Not the same as me saying, "Hey, investigate this player for doing something that might get her/him banned."

For instance; my own personal rule for Undo's is:  I'll give you 3 freebies per game, with no questions asked.  I'll probably even grant an Undo after you have received new information, if the game context makes it clear that your mistake was due to playing on the computer and hitting the wrong key."  (E.g., you had extra actions left, but did not play 2 Goons still in your hand, when there was no Event that would reward unplayed actions.)

But, if someone keeps asking for Undo after Undo, I will finish the game, congratulate the other player on her victory--or on her game play if I win--and then hit the lightning bolt, so that I do not have to deal with that situation again.

Or maybe I play 10% slower than you, because you are a more experienced player, or because you simply think faster than I do.  You may want to finish the game, but then "ban" me so that you will not be matched against me in future matches.  I would like for you to have the ability to not play against slower players (using the lightning bolt) without feeling bad that you are simultaneously reporting me to moderators.

In other words; would it really be so difficult to add a specific "Report to Moderator" button to the main screen?  I'd like such a button to give a small drop-down menu with a list of choices ("profanity used" 'slow play' "other"), and then some sort of "confirm" second button.  If someone did this, the game info would automatically be saved in a link, to make it easy for a moderator to go directly to the game in question.  Oh yeah, maybe also have a 100 character screen as well, so the reporting person can add a few sentences, to specify which turn(s) to look at or give additional details.

Okay, that was a lot more than I expect to write in this thread!  :-)

[jsh]

I appreciate the post and that steps are being taken to address a serious issue.  (I guess I have been very lucky...never encountered a slow player, while others seem to run into them quite often, which would be very frustrating indeed.)

What I did NOT like was the thought that using the lightning bolt is being used as a signal to your guys to investigate the other person.  Up till now, I have been using the lightning bolt to merely prevent the game from matching me up with that player in the future.  That is Not the same as me saying, "Hey, investigate this player for doing something that might get her/him banned."

For instance; my own personal rule for Undo's is:  I'll give you 3 freebies per game, with no questions asked.  I'll probably even grant an Undo after you have received new information, if the game context makes it clear that your mistake was due to playing on the computer and hitting the wrong key."  (E.g., you had extra actions left, but did not play 2 Goons still in your hand, when there was no Event that would reward unplayed actions.)

But, if someone keeps asking for Undo after Undo, I will finish the game, congratulate the other player on her victory--or on her game play if I win--and then hit the lightning bolt, so that I do not have to deal with that situation again.

Or maybe I play 10% slower than you, because you are a more experienced player, or because you simply think faster than I do.  You may want to finish the game, but then "ban" me so that you will not be matched against me in future matches.  I would like for you to have the ability to not play against slower players (using the lightning bolt) without feeling bad that you are simultaneously reporting me to moderators.

In other words; would it really be so difficult to add a specific "Report to Moderator" button to the main screen?  I'd like such a button to give a small drop-down menu with a list of choices ("profanity used" 'slow play' "other"), and then some sort of "confirm" second button.  If someone did this, the game info would automatically be saved in a link, to make it easy for a moderator to go directly to the game in question.  Oh yeah, maybe also have a 100 character screen as well, so the reporting person can add a few sentences, to specify which turn(s) to look at or give additional details.

Okay, that was a lot more than I expect to write in this thread!  :-)

So let me be clear that I understand your (and Jeebus's) concerns. You don't need to worry about the problem you bring up in your post, though I agree it could have been clearer in the announcement (unfortunately, we only have so much time to prepare stuff like this and get feedback and every detail isn't always ironed out from every angle). People are not going to be banned from somebody getting mad or not wanting to play a person unless there is a reason that violates TOS. Generally, it's quite clear to a moderator from looking at blacklist data which ones are abusing the system and which aren't. I don't want to say much more about this lest we reveal everything. :) The system we have is not perfect, but I don't think anything is. The ultimate solution (just my opinion, not SI's) is to modify how timing and chat work in the client, but for now we have a quick fix.

[santamonica811]

So let me be clear that I understand your (and Jeebus's) concerns. You don't need to worry about the problem you bring up in your post, though I agree it could have been clearer in the announcement (unfortunately, we only have so much time to prepare stuff like this and get feedback and every detail isn't always ironed out from every angle). People are not going to be banned from somebody getting mad or not wanting to play a person unless there is a reason that violates TOS. Generally, it's quite clear to a moderator from looking at blacklist data which ones are abusing the system and which aren't. I don't want to say much more about this lest we reveal everything. :) The system we have is not perfect, but I don't think anything is. The ultimate solution (just my opinion, not SI's) is to modify how timing and chat work in the client, but for now we have a quick fix.


Thanks for the quick response.  But I think I did not do a great job of explaining myself.  Of course I understand that using the lightning bolt will not result in an automatic banning . . . there will be a process, multiple complaints about a particular player will be weighted much more than a single complaint, etc.

But my main point (which I concede was buried in my prior post) was that there ought to be a clear, dedicated, "report" or "complain to moderator" button, and that this should be completely separate from the lightning bolt, which is likely being used (and will be used in the future) for reasons completely unrelated to one's opponent being abusive, slow-playing, etc.

I totally get that space is valuable on the screen, and there are tons of worthwhile posts about things that should be already on the screen but are not.  Maybe one button:  "How was your opponent?"  If you click on that, it brings up 3 options...(a) heart (love this player), (b) lightning bolt (block from future matches), or (c) bomb with lit fuse (report to moderator, which Also would block from future matches).

Or something like that?  Would take up even less space on the main screen than the current format, which now has both the lightning bolt and the heart taking up space.

[jsh]

That is something for Stef to consider. We did discuss an essentially identical system like that recently. I can't read his mind and don't know what he's going to choose to do, but for the time being, the blacklist tool functions as reporting.

[katie_mi]

I agree with the previous objections about blacklist=reporting to moderator. If I blacklist a person, means that I don't want to play with that person again for what reason it may be. If we don't agree on handling undos or the expectations about time between turns differ or whatever. Is does not mean that this person is in any way abusing the system or that I want to report him to the moderator.
I would feel bad about putting someone on my blacklist if he gets investigated as a result. So please separate personal blaclists from reporting to moderator.

[drsteelhammer]

You don't have to feel bad about blacklisting people you don't want to play with. The actual slowplayers/abusive persons get blacklisted a lot more, like order of magnitude more blacklists than friendly/neutral people.

Also more importantly, Dominion has a very polite community (atleast comparatively to other online games), it's rarely the case that someone has to be banned, most of the bans are just the same person creating a lot of accounts.

[livresque]

Also appreciative of this being addressed globally, thank you for your time and efforts!  I hope this will affect change but am also concerned that I don't want to alert mods just because someone has overextended undo courtesies to the extent that I do not want to be matched again.  I know it is wheels within wheels and thank you for your help.

[coltrane]

Since the announcement I get at least one game every day where my oponent just quit 5 secs into the game cuz they expect insta action or something like that. I like to read the cards and plan a strategy on my first turn but now I feel like I have to explain myself even before I start looking at the card pool. It happens too that some of those people that play really fast even when the game gets complicated, if I happen to take a longer time in one turn, start to be really rude even when I explain that I am thinking. Seems like some people are using the announcement as an excuse. I understand the answers the mods gave in this thread, but anyway it seems that the few rude people just got a buff, now they have an excuse they dont doubt in throwing out. My question is, are you just looking to the people that gets blacklisted? or are you also looking to the people that blacklist a lot?

I ask this because i get a bit scared, my computer is quite old and it lags sometimes, and people gets annoyed for sometimes when we are drawing both like the whole deck every turn my turns tend to be idk, 10? maybe 15 secs longer? and that ahve been enough for some people to start chatting on the announcement and presuming a bad intention on my side. And its a problem, for I like to play smart, improvise and solve problems.

Anyway, even when it happens like 2 times a day, it is more often than I got stuck with intentional slow play...

[jsh]

You don't need to worry. I know it's frustrating that I'm not really explaining anything, but I don't want to give trolls more information about how we're identifying accounts.

[wildrumpus]

New name tonight DusconnectOnPurpose. Has to be same slow roller, just worse. Plays one card, disconnects, comes back on just in time to play another. Please ban him.You need to change rules. This worse than four minutes per turn. He's taking four minutes per CARD, right now.

[jsh]

New name tonight DusconnectOnPurpose. Has to be same slow roller, just worse. Plays one card, disconnects, comes back on just in time to play another. Please ban him.You need to change rules. This worse than four minutes per turn. He's taking four minutes per CARD, right now.

He's still doing the same thing, so still deal with him the same way. (Resign & Blacklist) Thanks. There might be a better solution later, but this is what we have right now.