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Author Topic: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score  (Read 382 times)

Offline katie_mi

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game 5899410. In the final scoring the estates aren't counted for final scoring as they should be.

Offline WhiteRabbit1981

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #1 on: 11 August 2017, 10:10:52 PM »
The Estates are not action cards anymore when you count points. The wiki says that ... wait, what?
Quote
Inherited Estates do count for Vineyard.
http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Inheritance

Is that correct? Can someone confirm the wiki, and when I type "someone" i mean Donald X.V. :-)

Offline Stef

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #2 on: 11 August 2017, 10:52:46 PM »
It's a bug in Dominion Online and katie has it right.

Offline WhiteRabbit1981

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #3 on: 13 August 2017, 02:24:53 PM »
just for my academic interest in the topic: there surely is a lengthy discussion about this somewhere on f.ds.com?

Offline Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #4 on: 13 August 2017, 04:09:02 PM »
just for my academic interest in the topic: there surely is a lengthy discussion about this somewhere on f.ds.com?

Well it's not lengthy but:

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=14125.0

Offline WhiteRabbit1981

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #5 on: 14 August 2017, 09:45:27 AM »
Not what I expected, but thanks MQ!
In my interpretation of the rules it would not work, but I cannot argue against "Donald says yes"  ;D

Offline werothegreat

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #6 on: 18 August 2017, 05:24:37 AM »
From what I remember the ruling was based on "what will casual players assume is the case and do anyway", which informs more rulings than you might think, honestly

Offline jeebus

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #7 on: 18 August 2017, 09:10:38 PM »
I don't see how it could be any other way. Whether the game is over or not when you count points doesn't matter, does it? The key is that the Estates are inherited as long as they're yours. In the end you count your cards. The Estates are clearly yours or you wouldn't even get the 1 VP for them. Or maybe I'm missing something?

Offline Ingix

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #8 on: 21 August 2017, 12:50:03 PM »
The point is how long any game effects last once the game-play is over. I do not think it is totally self evident that they still last when counting points.

With your argument, how long do the Estates still keep being inherited? Surely not for the next games as well. If the stop-off point is before or after counting is unclear at best (without the ruling).

Offline jeebus

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #9 on: 21 August 2017, 01:55:29 PM »
The point is how long any game effects last once the game-play is over. I do not think it is totally self evident that they still last when counting points.

With your argument, how long do the Estates still keep being inherited? Surely not for the next games as well. If the stop-off point is before or after counting is unclear at best (without the ruling).

All cards that were yours when the end-game condition triggered, are still yours as long as you're counting points. After that, they're no longer yours. I don't think this is controversial. And the Estates are Inherited as long as they're yours.

Okay, you could make a case that you move the card that has your token on it in order to put it in your deck before counting. Maybe that's what you're saying. Rulebook: "At the end of the game, include the card in your deck when scoring." But we know from Distant Lands that you can't move all of your cards before counting (because then Distant Lands would always be 0 VP), but they are still yours and count as being in "your deck". So clearly moving the card that has your token is not required and not necessarily implied either.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #10 on: 22 August 2017, 04:44:46 PM »
I'm not doing a technical analysis of what the various rulebooks say or don't say. I'm simply stating that the opinion that game effects have ended once counting has started is not something I would dismiss by using the phrase "I don't see how it could be any other way" on the ruling that has been made.

For a very long time players could at the end of a game just gobble up their cards and do the counting. They didn't need to remember any game effects. It would be possible to keep that 'simple' rule with Adventures by observing that Distant Lands clearly says that it cares about where the card was at the end of the game.

It would be possible to have this rule instead of the one we actually have, and it would IMO be still clear and unambiguous.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #11 on: 22 August 2017, 11:16:58 PM »
I just did a test game (unfortunately, the game reloads with an Internal Error).

It had the Obelisk landmark, the chosen pile was Fishing Village. I played Overlord as Fishing Village, then bought the last Province. I had 2 'real' Fishing Villages at that point.

That means that when the game ended, the physical Overlord card was still in play (duration card) and it was called 'Fishing Village'; it would have been counted for the Fishing Village pile if there was an Adventure bonus token on that pile.

At the end of the game I got 4 points for Obelisk from the 2 'real' Fishing Villages. According to a strict reading of your interpretation, jeebus, I should have gotten 2 more points for the Overlord that at the time of game end was a Fishing Village.

Maybe you're correct and this is an error in the game, I don't know.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Inheritance / Vineyard Estates not counted as actions in final score
« Reply #12 on: 23 August 2017, 05:40:26 AM »
You're right that Distant Lands could be interpreted as checking where it was when the game ended. But the thing is that doing that check is in itself an activation of the ability under the line on Distant Lands, so clearly the effect of the card is still active during scoring. Of course this is also the case with Landmark abilities that say "when scoring"...", or indeed for cards that simply say "6 VP" for instance, like Province. These are all effects that are active during scoring.

I don't see how it could be any other way for Inheritance according to a strict reading of the rules. Of course Donald could rule the other way and it would be clear and unambiguous. It would just be a special ruling. And actually that is the case for BoM/Overlord-as-Duration on the last turn. According to a strict reading of the rules, it should count as that Duration and not as a BoM, but Donald has ruled that it's a BoM.

Having written all that, I'm going to admit that I could be wrong in one sense. There actually is another strict reading of the rules which would revert Inherited Estates to just Estates (and revert BoM to BoM without a special ruling). And it's what I mentioned in my last post, involving Distant Lands, which you observed could be interpreted differently: If we say that all cards are supposed to be moved into your deck before scoring*, then the card that has the Estate token will lose it. Also, Distant Lands move from the Tavern Mat, but then we'd have to first remember how many were on the mat (in case there are some in the deck already). So we have to count some cards before we start scoring, which is somewhat inconsistent.

* It's unclear to me what is the current ruling on this. New rulebooks and cards talk about your cards at end game rather than cards in your deck, so clearly it's not supposed to matter where the cards are anymore.