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Cave-O-Sapien

Quote from: AdamH on 29 August 2017, 06:21:48 PMthe contents of section 8 of the rules are extremely important to me. In fact, whether or not I participate in the tournament hinges on what those are, because everything else out there seems good enough.

Quote from: tufftaeh on 31 August 2017, 05:05:29 PM
Not at all. I certainly agree that it is better to have good rules beforehand. But it seemed to me that it might be impossible to write rules which could be acceptable for you personally so I suggested the only remaining solution.

Taking statements at face value, it seems like Adam has a very specific request that doesn't seem unreasonable at all. You think it's impossible to clarify rules 8.3 and 8.4??

AdamH

Quote from: tufftaeh on 31 August 2017, 05:05:29 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 29 August 2017, 06:21:48 PM
It's a little baffling to me that you seem to be arguing that it's better to turn people away from the tournament than it is to write a better rule set.

Not at all. I certainly agree that it is better to have good rules beforehand. But it seemed to me that it might be impossible to write rules which could be acceptable for you personally so I suggested the only remaining solution.

I think I see what happened here. I said this:

Quote from: AdamH on 29 August 2017, 01:59:35 PM
I don't want to get to the quarterfinals of the tournament, then find out that I'm forced to have my match open to spectators, streamed with no delay by an unknown "third party" who could be anyone, commentated upon by people who have said inappropriate things to/about me in the past, or removed from the tournament because I'm unwilling to play a match at 3AM or something.

and I said it in first person. While many of the things I've brought up about the rules are concerns for me personally, I'm certainly not suggesting that the rules be changed because of what I want. I'm suggesting they be changed because the rules will be better as a result.

I want this version of online Dominion to succeed, and so I want this tournament to succeed. Having good rules will increase the chances of that. I may or may not play in the tournament but I don't think that should have anything to do with which rules are changed.

PPE: looks like I'm kinda-sorta ninja's by Cave-o-sapien.

tufftaeh

Quote from: Cave-O-Sapien on 31 August 2017, 05:12:20 PM
Taking statements at face value, it seems like Adam has a very specific request that doesn't seem unreasonable at all. You think it's impossible to clarify rules 8.3 and 8.4??

Not at all. But I think that the answers to Adam's specific questions are almost all obvious common sense.

I'm not making the rules but here is my guess what they currently mean implicitly:

Quote8.3 Some games may be streamed by third parties.
Up to the round of 16, this can happen only if both players agree on the specifics.

Quote8.4 From Quarterfinals onwards, every match will be streamed.
The matches will be streamed in spectator mode with delay and commentary. Moderators will decide about the commentators. If a player is unable or unwilling to have their match streamed or commentated by the selected commentator, they forfeit the match.

QuoteOrganizers may influence the scheduling to ensure no overlaps.
Moderators will undertake reasonable effort to consider both players' time zones and other commitments. If a moderator decides that one player's missing flexibility is responsible for not getting the match played during the scheduled week, that player forfeits the match. This can apply to both players of one match.

In other words: Moderators do sensible things and if necessary, they take the hard decisions.

Does this help?

AdamH

Quote from: tufftaeh on 31 August 2017, 05:55:05 PM
Does this help?

If the rules actually said this, or if the organizer posted this, it would help. There are other interpretations of the original rules as written, though. I could go through and point out places where it could be different but that doesn't seem necessary (if you want it though, I'll do it).

I think that none of it is "obvious common sense" so if you're trying to say I don't have common sense or that I'm missing something obvious, then I would just respond by saying that I think you should think about it a bit more. It's very possible for this to not get talked about, and then someone makes the quarterfinals, finds out they have to have their match streamed or else they forfeit, is not OK with that for whatever reason, and it turns out they've not only wasted their time playing in the tournament, but beaten other people who no longer have a shot at the money, when the best course of action would have been for the rules to have been clearer and have them not enter the tournament in the first place. By the current wording of the rules, everything is fine if they just stream all of their matches themselves from their own perspective, for example.

So yes, there is a need for an organizer to explicitly state these kinds of things, because there are multiple interpretations.

As for some of your interpretations, a couple of them have actual issues:

Quote from: tufftaeh on 31 August 2017, 05:55:05 PM
The matches will be streamed in spectator mode

This is in direct conflict with

Quote from: drsteelhammer on 05 August 2017, 04:06:16 PM
8.1 Spectator mode should be turned off unless both players agree to allow spectators.

so which one do you go with? At the very least you have to explicitly state somewhere that you're overriding section 8.1, but that rule was in place for a reason: if a player is worried about their opponent seeing their hand somehow, 8.1 protects them, so without the ability to only allow certain people to spectate games (other than the friends list, which is not going to work here), there's a conflict here.

One way to resolve the conflict would be to have the match streamed after it is over using the replay feature.


Quote from: tufftaeh on 31 August 2017, 05:55:05 PM
Moderators will decide about the commentators. If a player is unable or unwilling to have their match streamed or commentated by the selected commentator, they forfeit the match.

If the moderators want the authority to make people forfeit matches, it's pretty good practice to do it as objectively and transparently as possible. You don't want to get into the situation where this was the rule, we get to the QFs and the mods decide "OK we're having AdamH do the commentary" and all of a sudden people would rather forfeit the match. It could easily be seen as a move done by those dastardly evil mods -- "MWAHAHAHAHHAHHH I want Joebob to lose the tournament and I know he hates Adam, so I can make him forfeit by telling him Adam will commentate!!!!!" when it could have all been prevented by just listing all of the commentators before the tournament started. If I was a mod, I would want that rule to be written before the tournament starts so that I could just point at the rule and everyone's life is easier (except for people who join the tournament without reading the rules first. There's no helping them by making better rules, sadly).

Donald X.

Quote from: AdamH on 31 August 2017, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: tufftaeh on 31 August 2017, 05:55:05 PM
Moderators will decide about the commentators. If a player is unable or unwilling to have their match streamed or commentated by the selected commentator, they forfeit the match.

If the moderators want the authority to make people forfeit matches, it's pretty good practice to do it as objectively and transparently as possible. You don't want to get into the situation where this was the rule, we get to the QFs and the mods decide "OK we're having AdamH do the commentary" and all of a sudden people would rather forfeit the match. It could easily be seen as a move done by those dastardly evil mods -- "MWAHAHAHAHHAHHH I want Joebob to lose the tournament and I know he hates Adam, so I can make him forfeit by telling him Adam will commentate!!!!!" when it could have all been prevented by just listing all of the commentators before the tournament started. If I was a mod, I would want that rule to be written before the tournament starts so that I could just point at the rule and everyone's life is easier (except for people who join the tournament without reading the rules first. There's no helping them by making better rules, sadly).
It seems likely that commentators will be top players who have been eliminated from the tournament; thus it's not possible to specify them in advance?

I am just posting to say though, that if you are in a Magic: The Gathering Pro Tour, and make the quarterfinals, the match will be filmed, and there will be commentary, and you will have no say in any of that. And they have had players eliminated in earlier rounds do commentary, thus not possibly specifying them ahead of time. And that has all worked out, no-one ever forfeits to avoid that.

AdamH

Quote from: Donald X. on 31 August 2017, 07:06:35 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 31 August 2017, 06:27:16 PM
Quote from: tufftaeh on 31 August 2017, 05:55:05 PM
Moderators will decide about the commentators. If a player is unable or unwilling to have their match streamed or commentated by the selected commentator, they forfeit the match.

If the moderators want the authority to make people forfeit matches, it's pretty good practice to do it as objectively and transparently as possible. You don't want to get into the situation where this was the rule, we get to the QFs and the mods decide "OK we're having AdamH do the commentary" and all of a sudden people would rather forfeit the match. It could easily be seen as a move done by those dastardly evil mods -- "MWAHAHAHAHHAHHH I want Joebob to lose the tournament and I know he hates Adam, so I can make him forfeit by telling him Adam will commentate!!!!!" when it could have all been prevented by just listing all of the commentators before the tournament started. If I was a mod, I would want that rule to be written before the tournament starts so that I could just point at the rule and everyone's life is easier (except for people who join the tournament without reading the rules first. There's no helping them by making better rules, sadly).
It seems likely that commentators will be top players who have been eliminated from the tournament; thus it's not possible to specify them in advance?

I am just posting to say though, that if you are in a Magic: The Gathering Pro Tour, and make the quarterfinals, the match will be filmed, and there will be commentary, and you will have no say in any of that. And they have had players eliminated in earlier rounds do commentary, thus not possibly specifying them ahead of time. And that has all worked out, no-one ever forfeits to avoid that.

I of all people don't mind being filmed, but I think it would be a good idea to explicitly state it in the rules if the organizers want to be able to kick someone out of the tournament for any reason, especially if they necessarily have to make a deep run to get there and there might be higher scrutiny.

One idea is to have a pool of people to choose from, and only choose people who have been eliminated so far.

But yeah in Magic, do they really have people who played in the tournament commentate? I thought that with any competition of that kind of scale they would have dedicated commentators. It would seem weird to me but I'm not educated on the issue.

But as for this specific tournament, yes the commentary situation is a significant concern of mine. It comes from the fact that the TO and other people I suspect are involved in the tournament (organizers, but actually not any of the moderators, which is a big deal) have had a significant issue in the past related to commentary. Given that that's happened, regardless of my personal feelings about it, it seems like a smart idea to at least say something more specific in the rules to prevent a similar situation from getting bad in future tournaments that they run, like this one.

That plus the rule as currently worded gives this particular power to the organizers, and not the moderators, which seems like an oversight.

Cave-O-Sapien

Quote from: AdamH on 31 August 2017, 07:23:07 PMIt comes from the fact that the TO and other people I suspect are involved in the tournament (organizers, but actually not any of the moderators, which is a big deal) have had a significant issue in the past related to commentary.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but this statement is a little concerning to me. It sounds like there is some history here that goes beyond rules clarifications.

Could someone elaborate on this in an objective manner? I don't need to know the entire Sordid History of Dominion Tournament Commentary, but I'd like to have some idea what is being referenced.

Donald X.

Quote from: AdamH on 31 August 2017, 07:23:07 PM
But yeah in Magic, do they really have people who played in the tournament commentate? I thought that with any competition of that kind of scale they would have dedicated commentators. It would seem weird to me but I'm not educated on the issue.
I don't know if they do this today, but they definitely did in the murky past, at multiple tournaments IRL. You are correct that you could potentially list all such players ahead of time; "if Mic doesn't make it he's agreed to commentate." I don't see why anyone would then decide "oh therefore I'm not playing." Absolutely anyone can comment after the fact anyway.

I don't see how real-time spectating / commentating possibly works for an online tournament with a cash prize; there's no way to stop the players from spectating, and incentive for them to do so. I would just ban it even if both players agree to it; then no-one has to worry about it, and no-one is that awful person who thought their opponent might cheat. As noted you can see the games after the fact.

dan

Quote from: AdamH on 31 August 2017, 07:23:07 PM
But yeah in Magic, do they really have people who played in the tournament commentate? I thought that with any competition of that kind of scale they would have dedicated commentators. It would seem weird to me but I'm not educated on the issue.

There's this guy, or perhaps legend, Luis-Scott Vargas who is a professional player, writer, game designer, and (for now) a professional commentator.

He used to play in major events, make the top 8, lose, and the jump in the commentary booth just a couple of minutes later.

dan

On 8.4 - perhaps the games could be recorded and streamed later? This helps with scheduling and protects against sniping

jsh

Quote from: dan on 31 August 2017, 10:46:24 PM
On 8.4 - perhaps the games could be recorded and streamed later? This helps with scheduling and protects against sniping

A ten minute delay would be fine? Unless the players take ten minutes per click, which is against the rules. :)

Burning Skull

Quote from: Cave-O-Sapien on 31 August 2017, 08:30:01 PM
Quote from: AdamH on 31 August 2017, 07:23:07 PMIt comes from the fact that the TO and other people I suspect are involved in the tournament (organizers, but actually not any of the moderators, which is a big deal) have had a significant issue in the past related to commentary.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but this statement is a little concerning to me. It sounds like there is some history here that goes beyond rules clarifications.

Could someone elaborate on this in an objective manner? I don't need to know the entire Sordid History of Dominion Tournament Commentary, but I'd like to have some idea what is being referenced.


There was a League Championship match, and it was announced beforehand that Donald X in pair with someone else will be commenting.
That "someone else" turned out to be not Adam.
That is the issue.

AdamH

Quote from: Burning Skull on 01 September 2017, 02:19:54 AM
There was a League Championship match, and it was announced beforehand that Donald X in pair with someone else will be commenting.
That "someone else" turned out to be not Adam.
That is the issue.

This is a pretty inaccurate description of the issue.

But that's not particularly relevant to the fact that the rule should be made more specific.

drsteelhammer

Updated rules 4.7 to include a section about stalemates. Feedback is welcome there.

Also updated 8 to clarify some things and removed the previous 8.3

I deleted every use of "Organizer" in the document which was just an oversight and not an intended distinction. It appears only once in there mentioning the prize pool, which was recommended to not violate gambling laws in certain countries.

Also, I don't want to overstate my role here; I'm just bothering people about how this tournament could be run without any major trouble and happen to post the results.

AdamH

Excellent. I think section 8 is very much improved. For this tournament it seems that the plan is to have matches streamed on replay mode, then?

Also, I assume there are no officially "tournament-sanctioned" commentators, since there is no mention of that in the rules?