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Author Topic: Can We Ban Possession  (Read 2749 times)

Offline Beyond Awesome

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Can We Ban Possession
« on: 18 August 2017, 04:25:56 AM »
I'm not asking we ban it from the pro board, but maybe this card should be banned from the tournament. Just a thought

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #1 on: 18 August 2017, 07:43:23 PM »
Why just the tournament?  It should be banned period.

Offline nidzela

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #2 on: 18 August 2017, 09:15:35 PM »
well... possibly i'm gonna feel a bit alone in this thread, but here i go: what's wrong with possession?

3 out of 4 games in which possession is involved i'm being asked about banning it. but why indeed? i understand it is kind of painful to see "your" wonderful deck being used against you, as a sort of kidnapping or ripping. no doubt bearing that vulneration can be a hard lesson to learn, even though we're just playing a game. but beyond that primary reaction, there is a tactical richness to discover.

i can tell of a number of memorable games in which mindbending strategy suddenly popped up because of possession's unexpected effects: imagine herald, golem, tactician, goons, council room, ambassador, masquerade or black market combined with it; imagine games without multiple actions; i remember many games playing the poorer the better, crazy situations in which players compete to fastly weaken their own decks...

i've been amazed no few times because of possession, regardless of winning or losing my games. just give it a try, and have fun!

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #3 on: 18 August 2017, 10:27:01 PM »
This thread discusses the problems with Possession.

http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2005.msg7761#msg7761

Basically, it is an attack in all but name, that does not allow the defenses that cards with the attack type allow.

Offline jsh

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #4 on: 18 August 2017, 10:37:01 PM »
Donald has already suggested that there should be a 1-5 card banlist in the future, which will hopefully effectively function as a ban for Possession. That's long-term though. Personally, I am in favor of banning Possession for the tournament; it's a card few people like playing with that can literally lead to broken/stalemate games with debt (and it's not even convoluted to end up in the scenario!) However, I am also in favor of the rules being the same as people initially signed up for and would like to see as few changes as possible. Tournaments will get better as we keep having them and try changes.

Offline JW

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #5 on: 18 August 2017, 11:22:55 PM »
Basically, it is an attack in all but name, that does not allow the defenses that cards with the attack type allow.

That Possession is effectively an attack but hits only one other player is a huge problem in games with 3+ players.  But this is a 2 player tournament.   

The problem for the tournament is what jsh articulated.

Personally, I am in favor of banning Possession for the tournament; it's a card few people like playing with that can literally lead to broken/stalemate games with debt (and it's not even convoluted to end up in the scenario!)

Also, it's not a big deal during game play that Possession does not have the Attack type: most boards won't have Lighthouse, Moat, or Champion to block attacks with, and of the other reactions only Diplomat seems particular effective at negating Possession (Squire would have needed to be re-worded, though).

Offline Emeric

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #6 on: 19 August 2017, 01:30:35 PM »
well... possibly i'm gonna feel a bit alone in this thread, but here i go: what's wrong with possession?

3 out of 4 games in which possession is involved i'm being asked about banning it. but why indeed? i understand it is kind of painful to see "your" wonderful deck being used against you, as a sort of kidnapping or ripping. no doubt bearing that vulneration can be a hard lesson to learn, even though we're just playing a game. but beyond that primary reaction, there is a tactical richness to discover.

i can tell of a number of memorable games in which mindbending strategy suddenly popped up because of possession's unexpected effects: imagine herald, golem, tactician, goons, council room, ambassador, masquerade or black market combined with it; imagine games without multiple actions; i remember many games playing the poorer the better, crazy situations in which players compete to fastly weaken their own decks...

i've been amazed no few times because of possession, regardless of winning or losing my games. just give it a try, and have fun!

Not alone, I tottaly agree you !
When a player at start of the game asked me : "May we ban possession", I always answered : "I don't know if Possession is needed but if I need to buy one to win I'll do it".
And sometimes I add : "I dislike estate, duchy and province, May we ban them ?"

Offline jsh

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #7 on: 19 August 2017, 02:08:27 PM »
well... possibly i'm gonna feel a bit alone in this thread, but here i go: what's wrong with possession?

3 out of 4 games in which possession is involved i'm being asked about banning it. but why indeed? i understand it is kind of painful to see "your" wonderful deck being used against you, as a sort of kidnapping or ripping. no doubt bearing that vulneration can be a hard lesson to learn, even though we're just playing a game. but beyond that primary reaction, there is a tactical richness to discover.

i can tell of a number of memorable games in which mindbending strategy suddenly popped up because of possession's unexpected effects: imagine herald, golem, tactician, goons, council room, ambassador, masquerade or black market combined with it; imagine games without multiple actions; i remember many games playing the poorer the better, crazy situations in which players compete to fastly weaken their own decks...

i've been amazed no few times because of possession, regardless of winning or losing my games. just give it a try, and have fun!

Not alone, I tottaly agree you !
When a player at start of the game asked me : "May we ban possession", I always answered : "I don't know if Possession is needed but if I need to buy one to win I'll do it".
And sometimes I add : "I dislike estate, duchy and province, May we ban them ?"

The issue isn't whether or not people like the card, though. Possession can literally lead to stalemates and games that are impossible to finish. In a real life tournament, tracking the card is also extremely complicated at times, and there are enough bizarre interactions with the card that it's not crazy to think another broken interaction could be found. Why not eliminate all the rule confusion and simply disallow the card in 'serious' games? You'd still be able to play with it, just not when title/money is on the line. Me personally, I don't want to put it up to chance.

Offline yed

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #8 on: 19 August 2017, 04:02:58 PM »
I like Possession, please keep it in both the tournament and rated games.

Offline Burning Skull

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #9 on: 19 August 2017, 06:16:41 PM »
A lot of Possession games are fun in general, but due to some obviously broken interactions I am with those suggesting to ban it for the tournament.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #10 on: 19 August 2017, 11:45:37 PM »
Possession can literally lead to stalemates and games that are impossible to finish.
Cards other than Possession can literally lead to stalemates. The tournament rules have to handle that situation, whether or not Possession is banned... and if they do, then those stalemates do not require you to ban Possession.

I am fine with cards being banned from whatever tournament. When I personally am asked to pick cards for a tournament, there are several cards I don't use, including Possession.

Ideally you would be able to ban oh say 5 cards from your games and still have them be rated, and then that could just apply to tournaments too.

Offline nidzela

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #11 on: 20 August 2017, 01:09:55 PM »
fellows,
after reading all your previous comments i reach a practical conclusion: banning possession during the tournament is technicallly recommended, as long as it may behave unpredictably and, even worse, incur on complex bugs. unfortunate situations that would probably delay tournament's progress, until solved. so my original question has been answered. not worth to say i'll keep playing possession as much as i can in other games, anyway.

still i find something to add, a suggestion to put under your consideration. same as stalemate is possible in chess by players' mutual agreement, i'm thinking of a similar feature in Dominion: what about having the possibility to cancel a game by agreement? it would be useful in front of any kind of bug, including of course all those possession's bizarre interactions...

Offline strong hand

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #12 on: 23 August 2017, 10:13:56 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

If you find it hard to play with try reading these articles
https://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10653.0

Offline jsh

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #13 on: 23 August 2017, 10:42:33 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

If you find it hard to play with try reading these articles
https://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10653.0

I know how to play with it, but that doesn't mean it's fun to me.

Offline Seprix

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #14 on: 23 August 2017, 10:57:38 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

If you find it hard to play with try reading these articles
https://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10653.0

Not to mention both of those articles are so outdated the information within them is almost worthless.

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #15 on: 24 August 2017, 07:38:51 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

Fun for you, not for me.  Also, debates over fun-ness do not address the fundamental problem that it is an attack which does not have the attack type, and is thus broken mechanically.

Offline jsh

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #16 on: 24 August 2017, 09:22:17 PM »
So, another mark against Possession I hadn't considered: currently, it messes up the game log.

Offline strong hand

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #17 on: 24 August 2017, 09:30:32 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

Fun for you, not for me.  Also, debates over fun-ness do not address the fundamental problem that it is an attack which does not have the attack type, and is thus broken mechanically.

It's not an attack, you can't mess up your opponent's deck or hand by playing it.

Or at least, you usually can't .
And anyway, if you don't find it fun you don't have to play with it.

But a tournament is supposed to be about testing skills and putting the best dominion players against each other at the game of dominion.

And the game of dominion includes possession.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #18 on: 25 August 2017, 12:59:51 AM »
But a tournament is supposed to be about testing skills and putting the best dominion players against each other at the game of dominion.

And the game of dominion includes possession.
This argument just super doesn't work for Dominion. You play with a subset of the cards, automatically, and see a subset of the combinations. You never see everything. No particular kingdom card is essential for it to be Dominion; no particular combo is essential either. Any given tournament you might never see any particular card, and that doesn't mean we didn't adequately test player skill.

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #19 on: 25 August 2017, 06:39:44 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

Fun for you, not for me.  Also, debates over fun-ness do not address the fundamental problem that it is an attack which does not have the attack type, and is thus broken mechanically.

It's not an attack, you can't mess up your opponent's deck or hand by playing it.


Actually, you can.  You can spend their coins (from Guilds), play their teacher to put tokens in useless places, etc.  It used to be that your argument was essentially correct, but the game has changed to where that is no longer the case.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #20 on: 25 August 2017, 10:21:41 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

Fun for you, not for me.  Also, debates over fun-ness do not address the fundamental problem that it is an attack which does not have the attack type, and is thus broken mechanically.

It's not an attack, you can't mess up your opponent's deck or hand by playing it.


Actually, you can.  You can spend their coins (from Guilds), play their teacher to put tokens in useless places, etc.  It used to be that your argument was essentially correct, but the game has changed to where that is no longer the case.

I'd argue that even with Duration cards it is a form of attack. If I have a Wharf or a Caravan in play and you take my next turn, you "steal" the duration effects from me.

Offline Beyond Awesome

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #21 on: 25 August 2017, 10:33:32 PM »
Don't forget about trashing. You can essentially force them to have a dud hand by trashing all of their good cards. Also, there's Ambassador, Masquerade, etc.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #22 on: 26 August 2017, 05:12:02 AM »
There is obviously nothing mechanically broken about even a flat-out attack missing the attack type. Most games nothing will care about the type anyway, and Moat isn't obligated to stop all bad things from happening to you.

I understand if any particular person does not like the idea of an attack without the attack type; that's fine, we all have our preferences, and I try to cater to the common ones. What I am saying though is that there is simply zilch mechanically broken about it. Arguing that it's messed up is just like arguing that you don't like a particular card's art (and yes I care about that too).

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #23 on: 26 August 2017, 07:12:26 AM »
There is obviously nothing mechanically broken about even a flat-out attack missing the attack type. Most games nothing will care about the type anyway, and Moat isn't obligated to stop all bad things from happening to you.

I understand if any particular person does not like the idea of an attack without the attack type; that's fine, we all have our preferences, and I try to cater to the common ones. What I am saying though is that there is simply zilch mechanically broken about it. Arguing that it's messed up is just like arguing that you don't like a particular card's art (and yes I care about that too).

Right, and a card like Ill-Gotten Gains -- while not an attack -- still follows the "attack all players (if possible)" precedent.

But of course, any complaints about Possession's "directedness" should be moot in a 2-player tournament.

Offline Emeric

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #24 on: 26 August 2017, 11:28:25 AM »

I'd argue that even with Duration cards it is a form of attack. If I have a Wharf or a Caravan in play and you take my next turn, you "steal" the duration effects from me.

But may be when there is possession you have to not go on duration cards. May be....

The problem is may be that when there is possession player have to think to change the best way to win. And it's for that I think Possession is a very interesting card.

Offline Lemonspawn

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #25 on: 12 September 2017, 11:28:56 PM »
This has probably been suggested before, but I feel like possession should have errata:

1. Make it an attack.

2. Make it not stack (add wording similar to outpost).

Does it NEED errata?  No, but I just think the world would be a better place if Possession were *slightly* weakened.  Hey, they changed Masquerade, why not change Possession?

I'll suggest agreeing to ban possession in any of my individual matches in the tournament, that's for sure.  Also rebuild.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #26 on: 13 September 2017, 01:39:17 AM »
Also rebuild.

If you're the underdog I would think you'd want to keep Rebuild in.

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #27 on: 13 September 2017, 06:28:09 PM »
This has probably been suggested before, but I feel like possession should have errata:

1. Make it an attack.


You cannot give Possession the attack type because it does not affect all other players.

Offline blamelewis

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #28 on: 13 September 2017, 10:44:12 PM »
I'd like a new feature which is an extension of Familiar cards - a "don't play games with x card in them" feature...

I've removed Possession from my familiar cards (it's my only unfamiliar card now!) and set my maximum unfamiliar cards to 0 - but still I regularly get in in games, presumably because I'm playing an opponent with a subscription and that's re-enabling it?

So the familiar card thing doesn't work especially well for that purpose, and I've come to really hate Possession - or at least if I were to play with it I'd have to be in the mood for it...

so, long winded feature request saying - isn't there some way to make it a user-selectable deal-breaker for the game matching process?

Thanks

Tim

Offline jsh

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #29 on: 13 September 2017, 11:10:32 PM »
I'd like a new feature which is an extension of Familiar cards - a "don't play games with x card in them" feature...

I've removed Possession from my familiar cards (it's my only unfamiliar card now!) and set my maximum unfamiliar cards to 0 - but still I regularly get in in games, presumably because I'm playing an opponent with a subscription and that's re-enabling it?

So the familiar card thing doesn't work especially well for that purpose, and I've come to really hate Possession - or at least if I were to play with it I'd have to be in the mood for it...

so, long winded feature request saying - isn't there some way to make it a user-selectable deal-breaker for the game matching process?

Thanks

Tim

Familiar Cards does not work in rated games.

Offline blamelewis

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #30 on: 13 September 2017, 11:11:34 PM »
Missed that detail :) Thanks!

T