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Author Topic: Can We Ban Possession  (Read 4360 times)

Offline Beyond Awesome

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Can We Ban Possession
« on: 18 August 2017, 04:25:56 AM »
I'm not asking we ban it from the pro board, but maybe this card should be banned from the tournament. Just a thought

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #1 on: 18 August 2017, 07:43:23 PM »
Why just the tournament?  It should be banned period.

Offline nidzela

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #2 on: 18 August 2017, 09:15:35 PM »
well... possibly i'm gonna feel a bit alone in this thread, but here i go: what's wrong with possession?

3 out of 4 games in which possession is involved i'm being asked about banning it. but why indeed? i understand it is kind of painful to see "your" wonderful deck being used against you, as a sort of kidnapping or ripping. no doubt bearing that vulneration can be a hard lesson to learn, even though we're just playing a game. but beyond that primary reaction, there is a tactical richness to discover.

i can tell of a number of memorable games in which mindbending strategy suddenly popped up because of possession's unexpected effects: imagine herald, golem, tactician, goons, council room, ambassador, masquerade or black market combined with it; imagine games without multiple actions; i remember many games playing the poorer the better, crazy situations in which players compete to fastly weaken their own decks...

i've been amazed no few times because of possession, regardless of winning or losing my games. just give it a try, and have fun!

Offline Jacob Marley

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #3 on: 18 August 2017, 10:27:01 PM »
This thread discusses the problems with Possession.

http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2005.msg7761#msg7761

Basically, it is an attack in all but name, that does not allow the defenses that cards with the attack type allow.

Online jsh

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #4 on: 18 August 2017, 10:37:01 PM »
Donald has already suggested that there should be a 1-5 card banlist in the future, which will hopefully effectively function as a ban for Possession. That's long-term though. Personally, I am in favor of banning Possession for the tournament; it's a card few people like playing with that can literally lead to broken/stalemate games with debt (and it's not even convoluted to end up in the scenario!) However, I am also in favor of the rules being the same as people initially signed up for and would like to see as few changes as possible. Tournaments will get better as we keep having them and try changes.

Offline JW

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #5 on: 18 August 2017, 11:22:55 PM »
Basically, it is an attack in all but name, that does not allow the defenses that cards with the attack type allow.

That Possession is effectively an attack but hits only one other player is a huge problem in games with 3+ players.  But this is a 2 player tournament.   

The problem for the tournament is what jsh articulated.

Personally, I am in favor of banning Possession for the tournament; it's a card few people like playing with that can literally lead to broken/stalemate games with debt (and it's not even convoluted to end up in the scenario!)

Also, it's not a big deal during game play that Possession does not have the Attack type: most boards won't have Lighthouse, Moat, or Champion to block attacks with, and of the other reactions only Diplomat seems particular effective at negating Possession (Squire would have needed to be re-worded, though).

Offline Emeric

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #6 on: 19 August 2017, 01:30:35 PM »
well... possibly i'm gonna feel a bit alone in this thread, but here i go: what's wrong with possession?

3 out of 4 games in which possession is involved i'm being asked about banning it. but why indeed? i understand it is kind of painful to see "your" wonderful deck being used against you, as a sort of kidnapping or ripping. no doubt bearing that vulneration can be a hard lesson to learn, even though we're just playing a game. but beyond that primary reaction, there is a tactical richness to discover.

i can tell of a number of memorable games in which mindbending strategy suddenly popped up because of possession's unexpected effects: imagine herald, golem, tactician, goons, council room, ambassador, masquerade or black market combined with it; imagine games without multiple actions; i remember many games playing the poorer the better, crazy situations in which players compete to fastly weaken their own decks...

i've been amazed no few times because of possession, regardless of winning or losing my games. just give it a try, and have fun!

Not alone, I tottaly agree you !
When a player at start of the game asked me : "May we ban possession", I always answered : "I don't know if Possession is needed but if I need to buy one to win I'll do it".
And sometimes I add : "I dislike estate, duchy and province, May we ban them ?"

Online jsh

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #7 on: 19 August 2017, 02:08:27 PM »
well... possibly i'm gonna feel a bit alone in this thread, but here i go: what's wrong with possession?

3 out of 4 games in which possession is involved i'm being asked about banning it. but why indeed? i understand it is kind of painful to see "your" wonderful deck being used against you, as a sort of kidnapping or ripping. no doubt bearing that vulneration can be a hard lesson to learn, even though we're just playing a game. but beyond that primary reaction, there is a tactical richness to discover.

i can tell of a number of memorable games in which mindbending strategy suddenly popped up because of possession's unexpected effects: imagine herald, golem, tactician, goons, council room, ambassador, masquerade or black market combined with it; imagine games without multiple actions; i remember many games playing the poorer the better, crazy situations in which players compete to fastly weaken their own decks...

i've been amazed no few times because of possession, regardless of winning or losing my games. just give it a try, and have fun!

Not alone, I tottaly agree you !
When a player at start of the game asked me : "May we ban possession", I always answered : "I don't know if Possession is needed but if I need to buy one to win I'll do it".
And sometimes I add : "I dislike estate, duchy and province, May we ban them ?"

The issue isn't whether or not people like the card, though. Possession can literally lead to stalemates and games that are impossible to finish. In a real life tournament, tracking the card is also extremely complicated at times, and there are enough bizarre interactions with the card that it's not crazy to think another broken interaction could be found. Why not eliminate all the rule confusion and simply disallow the card in 'serious' games? You'd still be able to play with it, just not when title/money is on the line. Me personally, I don't want to put it up to chance.

Offline yed

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #8 on: 19 August 2017, 04:02:58 PM »
I like Possession, please keep it in both the tournament and rated games.

Offline Burning Skull

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #9 on: 19 August 2017, 06:16:41 PM »
A lot of Possession games are fun in general, but due to some obviously broken interactions I am with those suggesting to ban it for the tournament.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #10 on: 19 August 2017, 11:45:37 PM »
Possession can literally lead to stalemates and games that are impossible to finish.
Cards other than Possession can literally lead to stalemates. The tournament rules have to handle that situation, whether or not Possession is banned... and if they do, then those stalemates do not require you to ban Possession.

I am fine with cards being banned from whatever tournament. When I personally am asked to pick cards for a tournament, there are several cards I don't use, including Possession.

Ideally you would be able to ban oh say 5 cards from your games and still have them be rated, and then that could just apply to tournaments too.

Offline nidzela

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #11 on: 20 August 2017, 01:09:55 PM »
fellows,
after reading all your previous comments i reach a practical conclusion: banning possession during the tournament is technicallly recommended, as long as it may behave unpredictably and, even worse, incur on complex bugs. unfortunate situations that would probably delay tournament's progress, until solved. so my original question has been answered. not worth to say i'll keep playing possession as much as i can in other games, anyway.

still i find something to add, a suggestion to put under your consideration. same as stalemate is possible in chess by players' mutual agreement, i'm thinking of a similar feature in Dominion: what about having the possibility to cancel a game by agreement? it would be useful in front of any kind of bug, including of course all those possession's bizarre interactions...

Offline strong hand

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #12 on: 23 August 2017, 10:13:56 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

If you find it hard to play with try reading these articles
https://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10653.0

Online jsh

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #13 on: 23 August 2017, 10:42:33 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

If you find it hard to play with try reading these articles
https://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10653.0

I know how to play with it, but that doesn't mean it's fun to me.

Offline Seprix

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Re: Can We Ban Possession
« Reply #14 on: 23 August 2017, 10:57:38 PM »
please don't ban it. It's fun.

If you find it hard to play with try reading these articles
https://dominionstrategy.com/2010/12/03/alchemy-possession/
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10653.0

Not to mention both of those articles are so outdated the information within them is almost worthless.