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Author Topic: When Are you a respectable player?  (Read 739 times)

Offline PeasantKing

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When Are you a respectable player?
« on: 11 November 2017, 09:07:29 PM »
I’ve recently started playing dominion in the last few months and I really like it. It just got me thinking at what point are you a reasonablely good player. When you hit level 50 online? 60? I’m just curious when you become competitively good

Offline jsh

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #1 on: 11 November 2017, 09:21:09 PM »
For reference, I hover around Level 60-61.

I think the ratings don't always tell the full story, but typically, when I'm automatching, I expect players at Level 53 or above to be capable of outplaying me, but it isn't really consistent unless they are at least Level 58. I would estimate that most players at Level 50 or so are 'good' at Dominion. Below 50, there is just a lot of variety. On my alt account, I have seen players in the 40s play like some of the best players and also players who didn't seem to understand key cards. So I'm going with a rough estimate of Level 50 as a 'good player.'

Still, it's a card game and sometimes the best players even miss a good strategy, so really anyone can beat anyone. You just can't judge by individual games or ratings at times.


Offline TimSharrock

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #2 on: 11 November 2017, 09:36:33 PM »
I seem quite stable at about 48. I would say that I roughly know what I am doing, but don't do it particularly well.

I rarely beat people rated 55 (as one would expect).

So maybe I am just about respectable, but far from good!

Offline randomjoyz

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #3 on: 12 November 2017, 03:26:07 AM »
I seem quite stable at about 48. I would say that I roughly know what I am doing, but don't do it particularly well.

I rarely beat people rated 55 (as one would expect).

So maybe I am just about respectable, but far from good!
This is about me too, I know the game and how all the cards work pretty much 100%, but I don't always choose the best strategies or think too much about what I'm doing so my rating stays in the high 40s.

Offline Stef

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #4 on: 12 November 2017, 12:58:01 PM »
I’ve recently started playing dominion in the last few months and I really like it. It just got me thinking at what point are you a reasonablely good player. When you hit level 50 online? 60? I’m just curious when you become competitively good

If you want to find out, currently this is the place to be. It's a friendly competitive environment for all levels of play. I hope to add tournament features to the online client some day, but that has a lower priority then some other pretty big things.

Offline Geronimoo

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #5 on: 13 November 2017, 10:07:44 AM »
I'm level 60. From experience I've seen players below level 50 make major game costing mistakes. Between 50 and 60 most players seem to know what they're doing, meaning they pick a decent strategy and stick with it. Small mistakes are made in the execution though I've seen major flaws in endgame play. Players above 60 still make mistakes, but they will outplay me in small areas like better openings, better tactical play and very often endgame play. If the board has tricky cards like Procession I'm often outplayed by these guys. So it's a bit subjective who is a good player. From my perspective I'd say you're pretty good at this game if you're above level 50.

Offline TimSharrock

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #6 on: 13 November 2017, 11:16:48 AM »
"players below level 50 make major game costing mistakes" - yes, that is me, but at not much below 50, I hope that they are now only occasional!

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #7 on: 13 November 2017, 05:06:36 PM »
For reference, I hover around Level 60-61.

I think the ratings don't always tell the full story, but typically, when I'm automatching, I expect players at Level 53 or above to be capable of outplaying me, but it isn't really consistent unless they are at least Level 58. I would estimate that most players at Level 50 or so are 'good' at Dominion. Below 50, there is just a lot of variety. On my alt account, I have seen players in the 40s play like some of the best players and also players who didn't seem to understand key cards. So I'm going with a rough estimate of Level 50 as a 'good player.'

This seems pretty accurate to me. I've been sitting at 56 +/- 0.5 for a little while now, and I specifically agree with your assessment of that level 58 cutoff.

Offline Ragnar-widowmaker

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #8 on: 13 November 2017, 06:22:28 PM »
I find that a lot of the time, the opening 4 hands is enough to already dictate who will win (this is only to do with luck). Sometime even the opening 2 hands.

Many games I find that I do not play worse (and occasionally I play better), but the fact that the order of their coppers/others comes out different means they get on to the 5+ cards faster, which results in them cycling through their cards faster.

Then its a matter of whether they are inferior, then I can overtake them. But if we are equal, or I am just a little bit better, then sometimes the effect of the opening hand is already a bridge to far.

This of course works the other way around with better players.

Offline Stef

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #9 on: 13 November 2017, 07:02:32 PM »
I find that a lot of the time, the opening 4 hands is enough to already dictate who will win (this is only to do with luck). Sometime even the opening 2 hands.

Many games I find that I do not play worse (and occasionally I play better), but the fact that the order of their coppers/others comes out different means they get on to the 5+ cards faster, which results in them cycling through their cards faster.

Then its a matter of whether they are inferior, then I can overtake them. But if we are equal, or I am just a little bit better, then sometimes the effect of the opening hand is already a bridge to far.

This of course works the other way around with better players.

Luck is certainly an aspect in dominion between equally skilled players.
But I would be surprised if you wouldn't be able to double your win percentage if you played flawless.
(Un)fortunately Dominion is complicated enough that nobody knows what flawless is.

Very often the difference between a good and a top player is on how to handle the difference in early shuffle luck.
Does the current state of affairs push you to building a more reliable deck or a deck that produces more on a good turn? Certainly not an easy question to answer in general.

Try it out in one of your own games. Look at the deck you are building, and ask yourself how your buys or plays would change if you would have been severely behind or ahead. Early building often doesn't change - it's just about doing the best thing for your deck. But in the middle and late game, you can't make sensible decisions without also considering how your opponent is doing.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #10 on: 13 November 2017, 08:14:11 PM »
Luck is certainly an aspect in dominion between equally skilled players.
But I would be surprised if you wouldn't be able to double your win percentage if you played flawless.
(Un)fortunately Dominion is complicated enough that nobody knows what flawless is.

Very often the difference between a good and a top player is on how to handle the difference in early shuffle luck.
Does the current state of affairs push you to building a more reliable deck or a deck that produces more on a good turn? Certainly not an easy question to answer in general.

Try it out in one of your own games. Look at the deck you are building, and ask yourself how your buys or plays would change if you would have been severely behind or ahead. Early building often doesn't change - it's just about doing the best thing for your deck. But in the middle and late game, you can't make sensible decisions without also considering how your opponent is doing.

In a game not too long ago, I made the observation to my opponent that it was interesting given our *nearly* identical decks and strategies how different our current standing was in the game. I meant it truly as an interesting observation, not as a snarky complaint about luck (I was behind).

My opponent took my comment in good faith but also pointed out one key mistake I had made on Turn 1 or 2. It was a good learning moment for me: often we fail to see the small decisions that cascade and subsequently distort our perception of luck.

Offline WhiteRabbit1981

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #11 on: 13 November 2017, 09:25:37 PM »
After several ten-thousands of dominion games since isotropic, I am surely what you would call a "reasonable good player". If you ask anyone from my RL friends, they will all tell you that I am a dominion god!
But everytime fortuna decides to automatch me against a player like Stef, it feels as if I play below average and miss some of the basic mechanism of the game and still have to learn how to play properly.
It is always a matter of perspective!

Offline Ragnar-widowmaker

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #12 on: 13 November 2017, 09:34:28 PM »
I just played against someone with cards I didn't know and got absolutley DEMOLISHED.

Anyone care to explain what the brown hexagon symbol means? Debt is it? and how is it that they managed to keep buying this 8-debt card for +5 cards, and end the game in one go?

Offline markus

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #13 on: 13 November 2017, 09:59:34 PM »
I just played against someone with cards I didn't know and got absolutley DEMOLISHED.

Anyone care to explain what the brown hexagon symbol means? Debt is it? and how is it that they managed to keep buying this 8-debt card for +5 cards, and end the game in one go?
Yes, that is debt. You can find an explanation here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Debt
You can buy a debt card and then repay the debt immediately, if you have enough coins left.

Offline WhiteRabbit1981

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Re: When Are you a respectable player?
« Reply #14 on: 14 November 2017, 05:44:43 PM »
It was Game ID 8669595.
Turn 9, buy Royal Blacksmith and repay 2 debt
Turn 10, buy nothing and repay 6 debt with 3 silvers.
Turn 11, played G,S,C,C and a +2 terminal for 9$. Bought Blacksmith, repaid 8 instantly
from that turn on, TruckerPikachu just drew (and played) massive ammounts of gold to buy everything he wanted. The Champion helped, too.

Explanation: TruckerPikachu build a deck with massive payload and massive draw. He kept buying the 8-debt card by generating 8 or more money each turn.