When Are you a respectable player?

[PeasantKing]

I've recently started playing dominion in the last few months and I really like it. It just got me thinking at what point are you a reasonablely good player. When you hit level 50 online? 60? I'm just curious when you become competitively good

[jsh]

For reference, I hover around Level 60-61.

I think the ratings don't always tell the full story, but typically, when I'm automatching, I expect players at Level 53 or above to be capable of outplaying me, but it isn't really consistent unless they are at least Level 58. I would estimate that most players at Level 50 or so are 'good' at Dominion. Below 50, there is just a lot of variety. On my alt account, I have seen players in the 40s play like some of the best players and also players who didn't seem to understand key cards. So I'm going with a rough estimate of Level 50 as a 'good player.'

Still, it's a card game and sometimes the best players even miss a good strategy, so really anyone can beat anyone. You just can't judge by individual games or ratings at times.

[TimSharrock]

I seem quite stable at about 48. I would say that I roughly know what I am doing, but don't do it particularly well.

I rarely beat people rated 55 (as one would expect).

So maybe I am just about respectable, but far from good!

[randomjoyz]

I seem quite stable at about 48. I would say that I roughly know what I am doing, but don't do it particularly well.

I rarely beat people rated 55 (as one would expect).

So maybe I am just about respectable, but far from good!

This is about me too, I know the game and how all the cards work pretty much 100%, but I don't always choose the best strategies or think too much about what I'm doing so my rating stays in the high 40s.

[Stef]

I've recently started playing dominion in the last few months and I really like it. It just got me thinking at what point are you a reasonablely good player. When you hit level 50 online? 60? I'm just curious when you become competitively good

If you want to find out, currently this is the place to be. It's a friendly competitive environment for all levels of play. I hope to add tournament features to the online client some day, but that has a lower priority then some other pretty big things.

[Geronimoo]

I'm level 60. From experience I've seen players below level 50 make major game costing mistakes. Between 50 and 60 most players seem to know what they're doing, meaning they pick a decent strategy and stick with it. Small mistakes are made in the execution though I've seen major flaws in endgame play. Players above 60 still make mistakes, but they will outplay me in small areas like better openings, better tactical play and very often endgame play. If the board has tricky cards like Procession I'm often outplayed by these guys. So it's a bit subjective who is a good player. From my perspective I'd say you're pretty good at this game if you're above level 50.

[TimSharrock]

"players below level 50 make major game costing mistakes" - yes, that is me, but at not much below 50, I hope that they are now only occasional!

[Cave-O-Sapien]

For reference, I hover around Level 60-61.

I think the ratings don't always tell the full story, but typically, when I'm automatching, I expect players at Level 53 or above to be capable of outplaying me, but it isn't really consistent unless they are at least Level 58. I would estimate that most players at Level 50 or so are 'good' at Dominion. Below 50, there is just a lot of variety. On my alt account, I have seen players in the 40s play like some of the best players and also players who didn't seem to understand key cards. So I'm going with a rough estimate of Level 50 as a 'good player.'

This seems pretty accurate to me. I've been sitting at 56 +/- 0.5 for a little while now, and I specifically agree with your assessment of that level 58 cutoff.

[Ragnar-widowmaker]

I find that a lot of the time, the opening 4 hands is enough to already dictate who will win (this is only to do with luck). Sometime even the opening 2 hands.

Many games I find that I do not play worse (and occasionally I play better), but the fact that the order of their coppers/others comes out different means they get on to the 5+ cards faster, which results in them cycling through their cards faster.

Then its a matter of whether they are inferior, then I can overtake them. But if we are equal, or I am just a little bit better, then sometimes the effect of the opening hand is already a bridge to far.

This of course works the other way around with better players.

[Stef]

I find that a lot of the time, the opening 4 hands is enough to already dictate who will win (this is only to do with luck). Sometime even the opening 2 hands.

Many games I find that I do not play worse (and occasionally I play better), but the fact that the order of their coppers/others comes out different means they get on to the 5+ cards faster, which results in them cycling through their cards faster.

Then its a matter of whether they are inferior, then I can overtake them. But if we are equal, or I am just a little bit better, then sometimes the effect of the opening hand is already a bridge to far.

This of course works the other way around with better players.

Luck is certainly an aspect in dominion between equally skilled players.
But I would be surprised if you wouldn't be able to double your win percentage if you played flawless.
(Un)fortunately Dominion is complicated enough that nobody knows what flawless is.

Very often the difference between a good and a top player is on how to handle the difference in early shuffle luck.
Does the current state of affairs push you to building a more reliable deck or a deck that produces more on a good turn? Certainly not an easy question to answer in general.

Try it out in one of your own games. Look at the deck you are building, and ask yourself how your buys or plays would change if you would have been severely behind or ahead. Early building often doesn't change - it's just about doing the best thing for your deck. But in the middle and late game, you can't make sensible decisions without also considering how your opponent is doing.

[Cave-O-Sapien]

Luck is certainly an aspect in dominion between equally skilled players.
But I would be surprised if you wouldn't be able to double your win percentage if you played flawless.
(Un)fortunately Dominion is complicated enough that nobody knows what flawless is.

Very often the difference between a good and a top player is on how to handle the difference in early shuffle luck.
Does the current state of affairs push you to building a more reliable deck or a deck that produces more on a good turn? Certainly not an easy question to answer in general.

Try it out in one of your own games. Look at the deck you are building, and ask yourself how your buys or plays would change if you would have been severely behind or ahead. Early building often doesn't change - it's just about doing the best thing for your deck. But in the middle and late game, you can't make sensible decisions without also considering how your opponent is doing.

In a game not too long ago, I made the observation to my opponent that it was interesting given our *nearly* identical decks and strategies how different our current standing was in the game. I meant it truly as an interesting observation, not as a snarky complaint about luck (I was behind).

My opponent took my comment in good faith but also pointed out one key mistake I had made on Turn 1 or 2. It was a good learning moment for me: often we fail to see the small decisions that cascade and subsequently distort our perception of luck.

[WhiteRabbit1981]

After several ten-thousands of dominion games since isotropic, I am surely what you would call a "reasonable good player". If you ask anyone from my RL friends, they will all tell you that I am a dominion god!
But everytime fortuna decides to automatch me against a player like Stef, it feels as if I play below average and miss some of the basic mechanism of the game and still have to learn how to play properly.
It is always a matter of perspective!

[Ragnar-widowmaker]

I just played against someone with cards I didn't know and got absolutley DEMOLISHED.

Anyone care to explain what the brown hexagon symbol means? Debt is it? and how is it that they managed to keep buying this 8-debt card for +5 cards, and end the game in one go?

[markus]

I just played against someone with cards I didn't know and got absolutley DEMOLISHED.

Anyone care to explain what the brown hexagon symbol means? Debt is it? and how is it that they managed to keep buying this 8-debt card for +5 cards, and end the game in one go?

Yes, that is debt. You can find an explanation here: http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Debt
You can buy a debt card and then repay the debt immediately, if you have enough coins left.

[WhiteRabbit1981]

It was Game ID 8669595.
Turn 9, buy Royal Blacksmith and repay 2 debt
Turn 10, buy nothing and repay 6 debt with 3 silvers.
Turn 11, played G,S,C,C and a +2 terminal for 9$. Bought Blacksmith, repaid 8 instantly
from that turn on, TruckerPikachu just drew (and played) massive ammounts of gold to buy everything he wanted. The Champion helped, too.

Explanation: TruckerPikachu build a deck with massive payload and massive draw. He kept buying the 8-debt card by generating 8 or more money each turn.

[Ragnar-widowmaker]

It was Game ID 8669595.
Turn 9, buy Royal Blacksmith and repay 2 debt
Turn 10, buy nothing and repay 6 debt with 3 silvers.
Turn 11, played G,S,C,C and a +2 terminal for 9$. Bought Blacksmith, repaid 8 instantly
from that turn on, TruckerPikachu just drew (and played) massive ammounts of gold to buy everything he wanted. The Champion helped, too.

Explanation: TruckerPikachu build a deck with massive payload and massive draw. He kept buying the 8-debt card by generating 8 or more money each turn.

Where do you find the log?

[Ingix]

If you know the game ID (8669595 in this case), you can load the game using

New Table/Load Old Game. Add a bot, then press "Ready". A more concise explanation can be found here https://imgur.com/a/tazJ8. This also has a link to a site where you may be able to find the game ID for a rated game.

[WhiteRabbit1981]

I did not went through every game. I just checked your last game here, assuming that your forum name is identically to your domionin name:
http://dominion.lauxnet.com/scavenger/?user=Ragnar-widowmaker&num_results=10
then I loaded the latest game ID.

Two things here:
1) I think this becomes offtopic in this thread ... but I would love to keep discussing this and other logs.
2) We still do not have a "strategy discussion" part in this forum. Stef, please make it happen! I know 99% of the pro's discuss at f.ds.com, but I see no harm in having a small place here too. I feel that f.shuffleit.nl attracts a lot more players in total than f.ds.com does ... for obvious reasons.

[Mike Thicke]

I would say:

Level 45+ players generally know what the cards are and the basic strategy for playing Dominion (value trashing, can build an obvious engine, know what attacks are good) but have major theoretical gaps. They often go for points cards too early, or overvalue landmarks such as museum or cursed shrine, especially early in the game.

Level 50+ players generally know what cards are good/bad on a particular board but make significant strategic mistakes (don't value trashing enough, go for points way too early, don't hit the right balance of action generating / draw cards, miss niche card interactions).

Level 55+ players (I am in this group, level 59) generally choose good openings and pick viable strategies, but often make significant tactical mistakes (don't switch from building to greening at the right time, miss endings for themselves or allow endings for opponents, don't hit quite the right balance between economy and draw).

Level 60+ players make very few tactical errors, almost never miss strong card interactions, and are very good at evaluating the relative merits of different possible strategies.

[tdellaringa]

I hover around 44-45. I think what Mike says is close. I can build engines, identify a strategy and gauge the worth of the events. My issues are advanced strategy and sticking to a plan, as well as reacting to better players and figuring out how to counter what they are doing. I'd also say I am weaker and identifying card synergies than better players.

I have my settings in the game set so that I play mostly better players than me, in the hopes of learning and improving.

Looking at scavenger (http://dominion.lauxnet.com/scavenger/) in the last 50 games, I have wins vs. like 7 50+ players, including a 55. But the issues I mention above make my play inconsistent. The players in their upper 50s seem to be very consistent players to me.

I've learned a lot from Adam Horton's streaming games. I'd recommend watching those.