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Author Topic: Throne Room (or Kings Court) + wish  (Read 556 times)

Offline josh bornstein

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Throne Room (or Kings Court) + wish
« on: 21 November 2017, 07:51:20 PM »
Game: 8921806

I played TR and Wish.  But got only one replacement card, instead of two cards.  Was this due to the fact that wish goes back into the supply (or pile of unused/returned Wishes) and therefore could not be 'found' for the second playing via TR?  Or, was it a true bug?

There are, by now--with so many expansions, a good number of cards that do not play nicely with KC and TR.  And other cards that are wasted if used as a duration card, and so on.  It would be great to have a pop-up window that shows up when a player tries these types of combos.  [e.g., for my attempt of TR + Wish: "Throne Room will have no effect on the card [wish].  Do you want to (a) Undo and select a different card, or (b) Continue with this combo]?"  I have no idea if this would be easy to code, if it would be doable, but a bit of a pain, or, if it would be horribly complicated and intrusive to code.

I suspect that there will be future Dominion expansions, ever-more-complicated and nuanced cards, and so "interesting" interactions will happen more and more frequently. 

If I am playing Lord Rat, then I don't really care if somethings happens that I did not expect from a card's wording...even if that confusion is what lost the game for me.  But it matters more in real-life games, since the only solution is to tell the other player in Chat, "Um, I thought this combo would be allowed, but Dominion says No.  Can I undo and try a different card combo that actually will be allowed?"

I would bet that if you threw this question open to players (ie, "What card combos do not work as you expect from the card's wording?  What popup warning/instruction would be helpful to have in that specific case(s)"; you'd get a fairly accurate and extensive list pretty quickly.)

Offline Ingix

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Re: Throne Room (or Kings Court) + wish
« Reply #1 on: 21 November 2017, 07:57:05 PM »
That behavior of Throne Room and Wish is not a bug, because Wish reads: "Return this to its pile. If you did, ..." The second playing could not return the Wish card to its pile, because it could not find it (it expected it to be in play). In this way, it has been formulated "Throne proof", like similar cards (Tactician).

Offline JW

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Re: Throne Room (or Kings Court) + wish
« Reply #2 on: 21 November 2017, 08:42:01 PM »
You may be interested in an article on Occasionally Relevent Rule Edge-Cases: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17560.msg718816#msg718816

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Throne Room (or Kings Court) + wish
« Reply #3 on: 21 November 2017, 11:11:12 PM »
Ingix,
That behavior of Throne Room and Wish is not a bug, because Wish reads: "Return this to its pile. If you did, ..." The second playing could not return the Wish card to its pile, because it could not find it (it expected it to be in play). In this way, it has been formulated "Throne proof", like similar cards (Tactician).


As I noted in my OP, my guess was that the "no throning" effect was because the card was returned to its pile.  That seems to be the case.

BUT, there is poor wording on the card.  There are some cards that you play and then have an option about what to do (eg, trash a Mining Village, to get 2 extra coins).  But the wording on Wish says, "Return this to its pile.  IF you did, then [gain card]."  This does not make grammatical sense.  If this card gave you an option of returning it or not returning it, then the "if" makes perfect sense.  But we do not have this option.  Therefore, the wording should say "WHEN the card is returned . . ." etc..  It's a shame, actually, that Wish does not give you an option.  There are a few cases (Horn of Plenty, Peddler) when one might want to put the card in play but not yet trash it/gain the new 6-value card.  My opinion only--that would be a nice wrinkle.

I presume that the next edition will change the above grammar mistake--to go from "if" to "when"--at the very least.  :-)

Offline dane

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Re: Throne Room (or Kings Court) + wish
« Reply #4 on: 22 November 2017, 09:02:49 AM »
No, that's not a grammatical mistake.  It says precisely what it means and it's a formulation that's been used on other cards in the past to cover the possibility that it bwas impossible to do the previous instruction.  I'm fairly sure that Dominate and Treasure Map are examples, but I'm fairly sure there are several others.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Throne Room (or Kings Court) + wish
« Reply #5 on: 22 November 2017, 09:29:10 AM »
Dane,
Interesting.  I had not thought of that point, mostly b/c I could not think of that situation occurring.  But then, probably Enchantress would create the situation you envision, yes?  Plus, of course, there might be future cards, in subsequent kingdoms, that would also make it possible to play a card but not be able to follow all the instructions on the cards.

The helpful advice I get from more experienced players is much appreciated.