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Author Topic: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal  (Read 809 times)

Offline ssly

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Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« on: 10 December 2017, 03:08:41 PM »
ver.1.3.4 #9483459 Turn 11

Here you couldn't topdeck a Mandarin with a Royal Seal which was forced by the Mandarin's when-gain to leave play but had already been triggered. You should be able to resolve the Royal Seal for the Mandarin, though not for gains afterwards. Yes, this is a bug unless an ancient ruling is reversed. See the post while articles on Wiki (Mandarin and Royal Seal) are ambiguous in this respect.

I'm not sure of other situations but I find online has correctly some similar things where two effects are triggered at the same on-buy and one's resolution eliminates the other's condition in the meantime. For example, Inherited Estate as Mint+Hoard in Turn 12, Mint+Talisman in Turn 13, and Talisman+Haggler gaining Mandarin in Turn 15).

Edit: Sorry, I made a wrong title. Corrected.

Offline markus

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Talisman
« Reply #1 on: 10 December 2017, 04:43:03 PM »
It is not ambiguous, but the important thing is that you need the right order: you must first use Royal Seal's ability to topdeck and then topdeck the treasures due to gaining Mandarin.
In the log, you need to click "may topdeck" first.

Offline ssly

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #2 on: 10 December 2017, 11:50:43 PM »
(Sorry I made a wrong title on the thread. Corrected.)

Markus, your explanation is inconsistent.

I resolved in T11 Mandarin first, but also
  • T12) resolved Estate as Mint first trashing Hoard; then DID gain Gold by the Hoard.
  • T13) resolved Mint first trashing Talisman and Quarry; then DID gain another copy of Mint by the Talisman.
  • T15) bought Market ($3) with Haggler, Talisman, and Quarry in play; resolved the Haggler first gaining Ferry-ed Mandarin ($1), putting the Treasures onto deck; then DID gain another copy of Market by the Talisman.
Does your explanation indicate these are bugs?

The thread I mentioned went to the direction of and finally concluded by confirming Jeebus’s tentative reformulation of general rules:
Quote
When several abilities happen at the same time, after determining the order of the abilities, resolve all of them, even if the condition that triggered an abilities changes before that ability is resolved.
meant Royal Seal (of course optional) could be successfully resolved AFTER Mandarin. Order doesn't matter.

Offline markus

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #3 on: 11 December 2017, 01:26:25 AM »
I wasn't aware of the ruling. Therefore, the other cases are all correctly implemented, right?

The only problem is indeed Mandarin + Royal Seal and there exists a work-around unless you care about the order of cards on top of your deck.

Online Ingix

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #4 on: 11 December 2017, 04:54:47 PM »
I think that we see here a problem of some inconsistencies that exist in the rulings, which make it hard to form a consistent mental model, which is a prerequiste for programming.

In this case, the Mandarin was gained when a Royal Seal was in play, so both Mandarin's ability and the Royal Seal's ability trigger. As SSLY has pointed out, it shouldn't matter what happens to either after the fact that they triggered. So in this case the ruling is that it only matters where a card was when the trigger condition happened.

Just yesterday I asked a similar question on f.ds Start of turn question. Here the trigger condition was "Start of turn", and to my surprise the answer (from Donald) was that in this case a card can arrive with a "Start of turn" trigger effect during the handling of other "Start of turn" effects, and it is still considered to be handled this turn.

So it seems that the game for some triggers only considers the exact trigger time, while for others it considers the whole time when the triggers are handled. I have no idea which triggers actually fall into what category.

Clearly the game used a 'considers the whole time when the triggers are handled' approach for Royal Seal, which was incorrect in this case. As SSLY pointed out, the interaction of Estate-Mint with Hoard on turn 12 was based on the 'only considers the exact trigger time' model.

I don't see how a player can understand what effect uses what model.

Offline markus

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #5 on: 11 December 2017, 06:17:09 PM »
I think that it's consistent once you know the rule: all effects that are triggered at the same time occur (or may occur if voluntary) until there are no such effects left. And they occur even if the original trigger wouldn't be present anymore (like in the Royal Seal case). In addition, you need to know the lose-track-rule which potentially prevents some from the effects from happening.

Online Ingix

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #6 on: 11 December 2017, 09:05:10 PM »
The problem is that your model doesn't give the right answer for a Transmogrify that wasn't on the Tavern mat when the turn started but can be brought to the Tavern mat 'in time' (that means while other Start-Of-Turn effects are happening).

Or maybe it does, under the argumentation that it did trigger in my hand, but couldn't normally be used from there, but once it reached the Tavern mat it now could be moved. I'll ask for clarification.

ADD: In a rules document from Jeebus I found the following section:

Quote
Keep triggering if the time hasn’t passed
While resolving concurrent abilities, if a condition changes so that another ability also can be
triggered at this moment (concurrently with the other abilities), it will also be triggered.

The example then given is that of using Diplomat to draw a Moat that is then revealed to block an attack.

I feel that this rule should have been restricted to Reactions (or generally those that trigger while in a non-public zone, if there are more), because there the rule is necessary to allow a judge-free game. It isn't necessary for cards in public zones.

Offline markus

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #7 on: 11 December 2017, 09:28:45 PM »
I don't find the Transmogrify example unusual (same with Summon): a start of turn effect gets it to the mat, it's still the start of turn and you can call it.

Online Ingix

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #8 on: 11 December 2017, 09:49:53 PM »
I think "Start of turn" is (or should be) a point in time, not an interval. The way it currently works is that "Start of turn" begins with your turn and lasts "as long as you have Start-Of-Turn effects to do". That's what irks me, the 'not really but kinda looking like' circual definition.

Action phase ends when you pass on an empty stack in the Action phase. The game doesn't care if you have to pass because you have no more Actions left, or no more Action cards in hand or you just don't want to do play anything.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #9 on: 11 December 2017, 11:21:41 PM »
All moments where different abilities could trigger are treated as windows of time in Dominion. That's why you can resolve several start-of-turn abilities after each other. First you can call Guide (which might entail a Tunnel Gold-gaining), then draw cards from a Caravan, then play a Princed card, then play a Summoned card etc. All the time it's still "the start of your turn". Otherwise you would only be able to resolve one start-of-turn ability each turn.

The rule (which I also found weird) is the following: When a window of time arrives, there's a collection of abilities that trigger in that window ("at the same time"). Let's say the window is "x" (where "x" could be "start of turn" or "when you gain a Treasure" or "when another player plays Attack" etc). The user picks which one to resolve first, then picks the next to resolve, etc. Nothing ever gets removed from the collection, but abilities can be added to it at any time before the window of time is over. That is to say, if the conditions are correct for an "x" ability to trigger at any time during the window, it's added to the collection, and never removed even if those conditions change.

Offline Donald X.

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Re: Concurrently triggered effects of Mandarin and Royal Seal
« Reply #10 on: 13 December 2017, 09:35:30 PM »
All moments where different abilities could trigger are treated as windows of time in Dominion. That's why you can resolve several start-of-turn abilities after each other. First you can call Guide (which might entail a Tunnel Gold-gaining), then draw cards from a Caravan, then play a Princed card, then play a Summoned card etc. All the time it's still "the start of your turn". Otherwise you would only be able to resolve one start-of-turn ability each turn.
Correct. I think this is the ideal way to handle this in games (of interacting rules on cards) in general.

The rule (which I also found weird) is the following: When a window of time arrives, there's a collection of abilities that trigger in that window ("at the same time"). Let's say the window is "x" (where "x" could be "start of turn" or "when you gain a Treasure" or "when another player plays Attack" etc). The user picks which one to resolve first, then picks the next to resolve, etc. Nothing ever gets removed from the collection, but abilities can be added to it at any time before the window of time is over. That is to say, if the conditions are correct for an "x" ability to trigger at any time during the window, it's added to the collection, and never removed even if those conditions change.
Correct. This is because of Secret Chamber / Moat way back when. You reveal Secret Chamber to an attack and draw into Moat. Can you use it? People felt like they should be able to. Also nothing keeps you honest; you'd have to reveal all Reactions at the same time, before resolving them, and of course the cards were trying to fit how they worked on the cards.