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Author Topic: Undo Request  (Read 780 times)

Offline bustnutt

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Undo Request
« on: 26 December 2017, 11:19:39 PM »
Most times if I ask for an undo request it is granted, and i always do the same for other players.  Recently I played a game where I did an obvious misclick, that did not reveal anything, and my undo request was denied.  I repeatedly put in the request, and it was denied, and then mysteriously it looked like I resigned, which I did not.  Maybe it timed me out?  Also, what is etiquette in the case of undo request?  Is it okay to blacklist someone for this denial?   

Offline jsh

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #1 on: 26 December 2017, 11:23:45 PM »
Users are under no obligation to accept undo requests. Sorry.

If you tried to undo for 4 minutes, the other player would have gotten a notification to force your resignation.

Just blacklist players you don't want to play with and move on. That's what the feature is for.

Offline blamelewis

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #2 on: 28 December 2017, 05:23:12 AM »
I for one don't always feel able to quickly see if an undo is after new information has been gained - and what helps a lot is if players asking an undo would post in chat why they'd like it....

I'm very glad the etiquette is that no one is ever obliged to offer an undo as it's too often the cause of rudeness when refused.

Best
Tim

Offline DanielVanciae

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #3 on: 30 December 2017, 07:45:42 PM »
I would normally grant an undo request without expecting an explanation if no new information was gained at the last step.  On the other hand, if information was gained, I would normally ask for an explanation.  I suspect this is a fairly common opinion on the matter. Some people do refuse undo requests altogether, of course, and that's their prerogative.

Offline IanP

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #4 on: 16 January 2018, 02:13:31 AM »
I just played against blamelewis.  I'm far ahead, and with one Province remaining, I play a Rebuild.  To end the game, I select Estate, the cards rush through the deck and the game is over when I get the final Province.  Something happens to my click to name Estate not to be trashed, and when my Dutchy is found, it straight away turns it into an Estate.

Any normal player would laugh and allow an Undo...  Then play another game. Not this opponent.  I pointed out that my Dutchy becoming the Province would end the game, yet I got, "you're in the lead... and the rebuild gave new info... so, sorry!"  The Province would have ended the game - the most basic rule of ending the game!

He then bought a Dutchy, then I trashed a Province fora Province for a 31 - 24 victory.

So, I'm just sat here wondering if this guy doesn't know the rules, or just wanted to annoy me by dragging the game out.  Surely as he had no Rebuilds and I had 7 (due to Advance and Death Cart combo) he'd realised that his game situation was hopeless?

So Tim, your etiquette....

Offline blamelewis

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #5 on: 16 January 2018, 02:18:22 AM »
I just played against blamelewis.  I'm far ahead, and with one Province remaining, I play a Rebuild.  To end the game, I select Estate, the cards rush through the deck and the game is over when I get the final Province.  Something happens to my click to name Estate not to be trashed, and when my Dutchy is found, it straight away turns it into an Estate.

Any normal player would laugh and allow an Undo...  Then play another game. Not this opponent.  I pointed out that my Dutchy becoming the Province would end the game, yet I got, "you're in the lead... and the rebuild gave new info... so, sorry!"  The Province would have ended the game - the most basic rule of ending the game!

He then bought a Dutchy, then I trashed a Province fora Province for a 31 - 24 victory.

So, I'm just sat here wondering if this guy doesn't know the rules, or just wanted to annoy me by dragging the game out.  Surely as he had no Rebuilds and I had 7 (due to Advance and Death Cart combo) he'd realised that his game situation was hopeless?

So Tim, your etiquette....

You're being rather dishonest about the order of events here:

blamelewis:  hi, good luck
IanP:  hf
IanP:  I've losttrack of my cards.. :-/
Undo request was denied.
Undo request was denied.
blamelewis:  you're in the lead... and the rebuild gave new info... so, sorry!
IanP:  IO'm not trashing a Dutchy for an Estate!
Undo request was denied.
blamelewis:  I'm not obliged to give undos... please stop asking
Undo request was denied.
IanP:  Are you 12 years old? Gameover!
IanP:  The Dutchy becaomesthe final Province thent he adults can move to the next game
Undo request was denied.
IanP:  I'kll put this on to the Dominion site!
IanP:  lol
IanP:  BABY!!!
blamelewis:  I'll happily have you put it on the site - since you're the one being insulting.
IanP:  Go ahead!

- so, as the rules state undos are NOT obligatory. I won't play against players who hurl insults when an undo is denied. I think your rudeness speaks for itself. Maybe it was pointless but the adult thing to do was just to play on and win anyway, not hurl insults.

Tim

Offline IanP

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #6 on: 16 January 2018, 02:19:32 AM »
Has anyone had an Undo refusal like this????


Offline IanP

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #7 on: 16 January 2018, 02:26:57 AM »
Thank you Tim,

My misclick gave me no advantage, it just prolonged the game by a turn.  Were you seriously trying to win the game due to a misclick?  I know that some take winning and rankings very seriously, but this is ridiculous!

I think that anyone finding themselves in my position would be annoyed by a person trying to take advantage of a genuine error.

On my part, I always allow Undo.  If someone wants to cheat to win then let them...  There are no prizes and the joy of playing well must be greatly diminished.  Some of the most fun games don't result in a victory.

Offline IanP

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #8 on: 16 January 2018, 02:33:44 AM »
I'll never understand why anyone would refuse such an Undo request.


Offline blamelewis

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #9 on: 16 January 2018, 03:04:30 AM »
This is rather tedious. No,  I was not trying to win the game due to your misclick. I simply didn't think an Undo was warranted given your lead and given that the rebuild gave new information. After that, your insulting behaviour at the refusal was never going to persuade me to change my mind. You want to think about how you talk to people. I'll say it once more - undos are NOT obligatory, regardless of what you would do in the situation.


Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #10 on: 16 January 2018, 04:01:11 AM »
IMO -- for whatever it's worth -- that's a pretty weak undo denial, but also pretty childish behavior after that. The best thing to do is resign and blacklist there. You obviously have different opinions on what constitutes sporting behavior.

This is yet another reason why I don't ever want to see "new information" be a criterion for automatic denial. This undo had nothing to do with the information revealed; it was simply a misclick/interface issue.

Offline Seprix

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #11 on: 16 January 2018, 05:09:23 AM »
#drama

Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #12 on: 16 January 2018, 10:56:12 AM »
This is yet another reason why I don't ever want to see "new information" be a criterion for automatic denial. This undo had nothing to do with the information revealed; it was simply a misclick/interface issue.

I think the intention was that "no new info" becomes part of an "automatic grant" for an undo.

Offline markus

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #13 on: 16 January 2018, 11:26:59 AM »
I think some undo-fights are due to misunderstandings (e.g. Hamlet when you want to undo your choice of +buy but the opponent thinks that you want to undo playing Hamlet).
Here it was not about choosing the wrong card to skip for Rebuild (I understand denying that), but the choice which card to gain with Rebuild. I would not be happy, if my opponent denied such a no-info undo.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #14 on: 16 January 2018, 01:40:25 PM »
Again markus beat me to it. The undo was *not* about changing which card to name for Rebuild to skip, or even to play something else.

Rebuild had started, found the Duchy as the next card and trashed it, then asked IanP which card to gain. This is what the undo was about, he wrongly choose to gain the Estate, most probably because everything happened so fast that he still thought this click was about selecting which card to skip.

This highlights an UI problem with undos: It may not be totally clear to the players who have to grant/deny it to which point in time an undo request is supposed to rewind the game.

About the players's reactions:
It was (as always) blamelewis's right to deny the undo, but the argument of "new information was revealed" doesn't hold, IMO, but this may have been a mistake on his part, as I explained above.
The chat reaction of IanP (if I assume the log protocol from blamelewis is essentially correct, but that can be verified, if necessary) is not OK, using (even mild) insults is not right, even in the heat of the moment. I can understand that he was frustrated, but it *should* have been expressed in a better way.

Offline yed

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #15 on: 16 January 2018, 06:07:22 PM »
It would help to highlight the part of the log which is about to be undone.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #16 on: 16 January 2018, 07:09:08 PM »
Yep. Possibly with an arrow pointing to the decision to be undone. Unfortunately, sometimes several decisions are on one log line (like if you play all your Treasures one by one), so this may still be error-prone.

Offline blamelewis

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #17 on: 16 January 2018, 09:18:21 PM »
Ingix and markus - thanks, you've nailed a part of why I find Undos so difficult. I also see now why it was considered a weak reason to refuse an undo, I was just confused about what was being undone - and the point is well made about how the interface exacerbates that.

It's the difficulty in seeing exactly what is to be undone, and a more verbose log would help that - although of course it'd be pretty cluttered for normal use. Perhaps it could just get verbose when dealing with an undo request?

Also useful (for me at least) would be a requirement for a player to state a reason they wish the undo, perhaps a dialogue box when the Undo button is clicked? That's then displayed to the other player with the Grant/Deny button.

IanP had posted a reason in chat "I've losttrack of my cards.. :-/" - but this hardly explained the situation to me, and what may have seemed obvious to him is not at all obvious to me, partly due to the interface and partly just because I'm not as keenly aware of which cards he has/hasn't got as he is.

As it happened anyway I only saw the chat text *after* I clicked the first deny, which highlights another issue with the Undo process -  as things stand explaining an undo request can be a race against time! You often have to click Undo first and then type your reason fast, to stop the game racing onwards. So in fairness to IanP it's hard to quickly and precisely sum up the reason for an undo request under those conditions.

Making the game pause when Undo is pressed then allowing time for a reason to be given would remove that problem.

I'll always wish for a civil and friendly playing environment. Undos are coming dangerously close to spoiling the site for me, with players who feel entitled to them (and get rude when they're refused) getting in the way of a fun game. I'm not sure of the solution - I'm pondering just a blanket refusal to allow any undos (and never to ask for any myself too!) I'd want to tell players about that when I greet them - but of course by then they're already committed to the game and would lose ranking if they resigned rather than play that way... That suggests we need a preference for games with/without undo allowed - something else in the matching criteria.

My other, entirely informal, criterion for asking/allowing undos is based on who's winning. I figure it's less sporting to ask for one when you already have a firm lead - so I tend not to do so myself when I'm in the lead and misclick or whatever. But I appreciate that this criterion is a matter of opinion, and not transparent to anyone until after the fact, if I explain a refusal.

My suggestions for Undo Reform, to summarise:
- More verbose logging (perhaps selectively when Undos are requested - highlighting the relevant log entires as suggested above is a great idea)
- Undo requests recoded to pause the game, and prompt the requesting player for their reason. (Perhaps also with a reminder that they are not entitled to the undo)
- Matching criteria to include a toggle for "undos on/off"

Thanks folks
Tim

Offline mrfiat

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #18 on: 02 February 2018, 11:10:42 PM »
I have asked for a option to not allow undos in the game matching but haven't gotten this option yet.   It would make for a much more stress-free playing environment.   All it does is cause fights.   

Or just take away undo completely.   It is not in the Dominion rules.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #19 on: 02 February 2018, 11:52:58 PM »
@mtrfiat: See Stef's response here: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2049.msg12419#msg12419

IMO, *not* allowing undos would create a much more stressing environment, because each single misclick/misunderstanding of the game rules/game state and the way it is enforced in this client is a possible cause to do something that is not intended.

If you click Village when your turn starts, only to see it discarded because you forgot that you have the "Lost in the Woods" state, and that not allowed to be undone has IMO nothing to do with "not in the rules of Dominion".

Offline tracer

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #20 on: 03 February 2018, 04:13:39 AM »
You know it's strange how despite all the reports on this forum, I have never heard a report from any of the players who I might consider friends about their undo denying leading to fights. It's almost like they are doing something differently to not get into those situations.

Online Stef

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #21 on: 03 February 2018, 12:42:12 PM »
You know it's strange how despite all the reports on this forum, I have never heard a report from any of the players who I might consider friends about their undo denying leading to fights. It's almost like they are doing something differently to not get into those situations.

actually I think it's quite simple... just communicate about it.

If you make an undo request that may seem a bit strange, proactively explain what happened and what you want.
If someone asks for an undo you don't like, ask "can you explain this undo?" instead of just hitting "deny".

I don't think you'll ever end up in a fight if you follow those rules. Sure there still may be a difference of opinion, but those can exist without sour taste.

Offline kn1tt3r

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #22 on: 05 February 2018, 06:46:40 AM »
The other day I accidentally made my opponent resign during a long think by him (the popup showed up and I reflex clicked on OK, just to close it I guess).

I suppose it would not be practical to have a undo for that as well?

Offline Rabid

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #23 on: 05 February 2018, 10:57:56 AM »
The other day I accidentally made my opponent resign during a long think by him (the popup showed up and I reflex clicked on OK, just to close it I guess).

I suppose it would not be practical to have a undo for that as well?

You could use the load game feature?