Undo Request

[bustnutt]

Most times if I ask for an undo request it is granted, and i always do the same for other players.  Recently I played a game where I did an obvious misclick, that did not reveal anything, and my undo request was denied.  I repeatedly put in the request, and it was denied, and then mysteriously it looked like I resigned, which I did not.  Maybe it timed me out?  Also, what is etiquette in the case of undo request?  Is it okay to blacklist someone for this denial?   

[jsh]

Users are under no obligation to accept undo requests. Sorry.

If you tried to undo for 4 minutes, the other player would have gotten a notification to force your resignation.

Just blacklist players you don't want to play with and move on. That's what the feature is for.

[blamelewis]

I for one don't always feel able to quickly see if an undo is after new information has been gained - and what helps a lot is if players asking an undo would post in chat why they'd like it....

I'm very glad the etiquette is that no one is ever obliged to offer an undo as it's too often the cause of rudeness when refused.

Best
Tim

[DanielVanciae]

I would normally grant an undo request without expecting an explanation if no new information was gained at the last step.  On the other hand, if information was gained, I would normally ask for an explanation.  I suspect this is a fairly common opinion on the matter. Some people do refuse undo requests altogether, of course, and that's their prerogative.

[IanP]

I just played against blamelewis.  I'm far ahead, and with one Province remaining, I play a Rebuild.  To end the game, I select Estate, the cards rush through the deck and the game is over when I get the final Province.  Something happens to my click to name Estate not to be trashed, and when my Dutchy is found, it straight away turns it into an Estate.

Any normal player would laugh and allow an Undo...  Then play another game. Not this opponent.  I pointed out that my Dutchy becoming the Province would end the game, yet I got, "you're in the lead... and the rebuild gave new info... so, sorry!"  The Province would have ended the game - the most basic rule of ending the game!

He then bought a Dutchy, then I trashed a Province fora Province for a 31 - 24 victory.

So, I'm just sat here wondering if this guy doesn't know the rules, or just wanted to annoy me by dragging the game out.  Surely as he had no Rebuilds and I had 7 (due to Advance and Death Cart combo) he'd realised that his game situation was hopeless?

So Tim, your etiquette....

[blamelewis]

I just played against blamelewis.  I'm far ahead, and with one Province remaining, I play a Rebuild.  To end the game, I select Estate, the cards rush through the deck and the game is over when I get the final Province.  Something happens to my click to name Estate not to be trashed, and when my Dutchy is found, it straight away turns it into an Estate.

Any normal player would laugh and allow an Undo...  Then play another game. Not this opponent.  I pointed out that my Dutchy becoming the Province would end the game, yet I got, "you're in the lead... and the rebuild gave new info... so, sorry!"  The Province would have ended the game - the most basic rule of ending the game!

He then bought a Dutchy, then I trashed a Province fora Province for a 31 - 24 victory.

So, I'm just sat here wondering if this guy doesn't know the rules, or just wanted to annoy me by dragging the game out.  Surely as he had no Rebuilds and I had 7 (due to Advance and Death Cart combo) he'd realised that his game situation was hopeless?

So Tim, your etiquette....

You're being rather dishonest about the order of events here:

blamelewis:  hi, good luck
IanP:  hf
IanP:  I've losttrack of my cards.. :-/
Undo request was denied.
Undo request was denied.
blamelewis:  you're in the lead... and the rebuild gave new info... so, sorry!
IanP:  IO'm not trashing a Dutchy for an Estate!
Undo request was denied.
blamelewis:  I'm not obliged to give undos... please stop asking
Undo request was denied.
IanP:  Are you 12 years old? Gameover!
IanP:  The Dutchy becaomesthe final Province thent he adults can move to the next game
Undo request was denied.
IanP:  I'kll put this on to the Dominion site!
IanP:  lol
IanP:  BABY!!!
blamelewis:  I'll happily have you put it on the site - since you're the one being insulting.
IanP:  Go ahead!

- so, as the rules state undos are NOT obligatory. I won't play against players who hurl insults when an undo is denied. I think your rudeness speaks for itself. Maybe it was pointless but the adult thing to do was just to play on and win anyway, not hurl insults.

Tim

[IanP]

Has anyone had an Undo refusal like this?

[IanP]

Thank you Tim,

My misclick gave me no advantage, it just prolonged the game by a turn.  Were you seriously trying to win the game due to a misclick?  I know that some take winning and rankings very seriously, but this is ridiculous!

I think that anyone finding themselves in my position would be annoyed by a person trying to take advantage of a genuine error.

On my part, I always allow Undo.  If someone wants to cheat to win then let them...  There are no prizes and the joy of playing well must be greatly diminished.  Some of the most fun games don't result in a victory.

[IanP]

I'll never understand why anyone would refuse such an Undo request.

[blamelewis]

This is rather tedious. No,  I was not trying to win the game due to your misclick. I simply didn't think an Undo was warranted given your lead and given that the rebuild gave new information. After that, your insulting behaviour at the refusal was never going to persuade me to change my mind. You want to think about how you talk to people. I'll say it once more - undos are NOT obligatory, regardless of what you would do in the situation.

[Cave-O-Sapien]

IMO -- for whatever it's worth -- that's a pretty weak undo denial, but also pretty childish behavior after that. The best thing to do is resign and blacklist there. You obviously have different opinions on what constitutes sporting behavior.

This is yet another reason why I don't ever want to see "new information" be a criterion for automatic denial. This undo had nothing to do with the information revealed; it was simply a misclick/interface issue.

[Seprix]

#drama

[Ingix]

This is yet another reason why I don't ever want to see "new information" be a criterion for automatic denial. This undo had nothing to do with the information revealed; it was simply a misclick/interface issue.

I think the intention was that "no new info" becomes part of an "automatic grant" for an undo.

[markus]

I think some undo-fights are due to misunderstandings (e.g. Hamlet when you want to undo your choice of +buy but the opponent thinks that you want to undo playing Hamlet).
Here it was not about choosing the wrong card to skip for Rebuild (I understand denying that), but the choice which card to gain with Rebuild. I would not be happy, if my opponent denied such a no-info undo.

[Ingix]

Again markus beat me to it. The undo was *not* about changing which card to name for Rebuild to skip, or even to play something else.

Rebuild had started, found the Duchy as the next card and trashed it, then asked IanP which card to gain. This is what the undo was about, he wrongly choose to gain the Estate, most probably because everything happened so fast that he still thought this click was about selecting which card to skip.

This highlights an UI problem with undos: It may not be totally clear to the players who have to grant/deny it to which point in time an undo request is supposed to rewind the game.

About the players's reactions:
It was (as always) blamelewis's right to deny the undo, but the argument of "new information was revealed" doesn't hold, IMO, but this may have been a mistake on his part, as I explained above.
The chat reaction of IanP (if I assume the log protocol from blamelewis is essentially correct, but that can be verified, if necessary) is not OK, using (even mild) insults is not right, even in the heat of the moment. I can understand that he was frustrated, but it *should* have been expressed in a better way.