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Author Topic: Undo Request  (Read 1318 times)

Offline yed

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #15 on: 16 January 2018, 06:07:22 PM »
It would help to highlight the part of the log which is about to be undone.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #16 on: 16 January 2018, 07:09:08 PM »
Yep. Possibly with an arrow pointing to the decision to be undone. Unfortunately, sometimes several decisions are on one log line (like if you play all your Treasures one by one), so this may still be error-prone.

Offline blamelewis

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #17 on: 16 January 2018, 09:18:21 PM »
Ingix and markus - thanks, you've nailed a part of why I find Undos so difficult. I also see now why it was considered a weak reason to refuse an undo, I was just confused about what was being undone - and the point is well made about how the interface exacerbates that.

It's the difficulty in seeing exactly what is to be undone, and a more verbose log would help that - although of course it'd be pretty cluttered for normal use. Perhaps it could just get verbose when dealing with an undo request?

Also useful (for me at least) would be a requirement for a player to state a reason they wish the undo, perhaps a dialogue box when the Undo button is clicked? That's then displayed to the other player with the Grant/Deny button.

IanP had posted a reason in chat "I've losttrack of my cards.. :-/" - but this hardly explained the situation to me, and what may have seemed obvious to him is not at all obvious to me, partly due to the interface and partly just because I'm not as keenly aware of which cards he has/hasn't got as he is.

As it happened anyway I only saw the chat text *after* I clicked the first deny, which highlights another issue with the Undo process -  as things stand explaining an undo request can be a race against time! You often have to click Undo first and then type your reason fast, to stop the game racing onwards. So in fairness to IanP it's hard to quickly and precisely sum up the reason for an undo request under those conditions.

Making the game pause when Undo is pressed then allowing time for a reason to be given would remove that problem.

I'll always wish for a civil and friendly playing environment. Undos are coming dangerously close to spoiling the site for me, with players who feel entitled to them (and get rude when they're refused) getting in the way of a fun game. I'm not sure of the solution - I'm pondering just a blanket refusal to allow any undos (and never to ask for any myself too!) I'd want to tell players about that when I greet them - but of course by then they're already committed to the game and would lose ranking if they resigned rather than play that way... That suggests we need a preference for games with/without undo allowed - something else in the matching criteria.

My other, entirely informal, criterion for asking/allowing undos is based on who's winning. I figure it's less sporting to ask for one when you already have a firm lead - so I tend not to do so myself when I'm in the lead and misclick or whatever. But I appreciate that this criterion is a matter of opinion, and not transparent to anyone until after the fact, if I explain a refusal.

My suggestions for Undo Reform, to summarise:
- More verbose logging (perhaps selectively when Undos are requested - highlighting the relevant log entires as suggested above is a great idea)
- Undo requests recoded to pause the game, and prompt the requesting player for their reason. (Perhaps also with a reminder that they are not entitled to the undo)
- Matching criteria to include a toggle for "undos on/off"

Thanks folks
Tim

Offline mrfiat

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #18 on: 02 February 2018, 11:10:42 PM »
I have asked for a option to not allow undos in the game matching but haven't gotten this option yet.   It would make for a much more stress-free playing environment.   All it does is cause fights.   

Or just take away undo completely.   It is not in the Dominion rules.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #19 on: 02 February 2018, 11:52:58 PM »
@mtrfiat: See Stef's response here: http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=2049.msg12419#msg12419

IMO, *not* allowing undos would create a much more stressing environment, because each single misclick/misunderstanding of the game rules/game state and the way it is enforced in this client is a possible cause to do something that is not intended.

If you click Village when your turn starts, only to see it discarded because you forgot that you have the "Lost in the Woods" state, and that not allowed to be undone has IMO nothing to do with "not in the rules of Dominion".

Offline tracer

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #20 on: 03 February 2018, 04:13:39 AM »
You know it's strange how despite all the reports on this forum, I have never heard a report from any of the players who I might consider friends about their undo denying leading to fights. It's almost like they are doing something differently to not get into those situations.

Offline Stef

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #21 on: 03 February 2018, 12:42:12 PM »
You know it's strange how despite all the reports on this forum, I have never heard a report from any of the players who I might consider friends about their undo denying leading to fights. It's almost like they are doing something differently to not get into those situations.

actually I think it's quite simple... just communicate about it.

If you make an undo request that may seem a bit strange, proactively explain what happened and what you want.
If someone asks for an undo you don't like, ask "can you explain this undo?" instead of just hitting "deny".

I don't think you'll ever end up in a fight if you follow those rules. Sure there still may be a difference of opinion, but those can exist without sour taste.

Offline kn1tt3r

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #22 on: 05 February 2018, 06:46:40 AM »
The other day I accidentally made my opponent resign during a long think by him (the popup showed up and I reflex clicked on OK, just to close it I guess).

I suppose it would not be practical to have a undo for that as well?

Offline Rabid

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #23 on: 05 February 2018, 10:57:56 AM »
The other day I accidentally made my opponent resign during a long think by him (the popup showed up and I reflex clicked on OK, just to close it I guess).

I suppose it would not be practical to have a undo for that as well?

You could use the load game feature?

Offline Renarr

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #24 on: 25 March 2018, 06:23:14 PM »
As a general rule of thumb, I'll always accept the first request.  I also don't ask for Undos.

But I've also noticed that some people are simply playing way too fast.  Personal opinion, that's not on me to rectify.  So I'll always decline subsequent requests for any reason.

I, too, would like to see the Undo request feature simply disappear.

Offline sudhish86

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #25 on: 14 April 2018, 08:43:06 PM »
I would normally grant an undo request without expecting an explanation if no new information was gained at the last step.  On the other hand, if information was gained, I would normally ask for an explanation.  I suspect this is a fairly common opinion on the matter. Some people do refuse undo requests altogether, of course, and that's their prerogative.

I agree. While it's obviously good sportsmanship to grant an undo, isn't it also BAD sportsmanship to ask for multiple undos in a single game? I have had multiple people give me a mouth full for denying their requests because when I asked for their intention, it was pretty obvious they rushed in making a decision.

I only ask for click errors, like if I click on  end buy instead of done trashing or something when I have obvious money to spend. The amount of requests I get in return because they rushed is like 10-1.

If you misplay your hand and, say, make a choice that only lets you trash one card when you can trash two, that's on you!!!

Sports are about winning and losing. What is "good" about someone who knows how to play the game undoing his way through a game? Shouldn't that person just deal with it and know better next time? That's actual sportsmanship.....

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #26 on: 14 April 2018, 10:00:21 PM »
sudhish86
I see your point.  Are you a player who does not also play IRL (in real life) Dominion games?  I will not speak for others on this site, but this is my perspective, when people ask for an Undo: Are they asking to correct a mistake where, IRL, that mistake would not have occurred?  If so, then I grant the Undo.  *Even if* they have received new information.

For example, earlier in the thread someone mentioned "Lost in the Woods," where you can get a boon at the beginning of your turn by discarding one card.  They way the online game is set up, it is very easy to accidentally select a card in your hand to play, only to see it discarded for Lost Woods.  IRL, that sort of mistake just would not happen.  So, I grant that Undo, *even though* the other player has now seen what the boon will be.  It's just not that big of a deal for me (although I don't blame other players who would do differently in that situation).  And if I granted such an Undo, I would also put a comment in the chat, to the effect of, "No problem to give the Undo.  But only one of those per game."  And I'd make sure I add a 'smiley face', to keep things light and friendly.

[Note:  This has never happened to me.  But if the other player was dashing through her turn AND also repeatedly complaining that I was playing way too slow, I suspect that I would be much more likely to deny an Undo request that was due to her playing too quickly.]  :-)

Offline sudhish86

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Re: Undo Request
« Reply #27 on: 15 April 2018, 05:55:05 PM »
sudhish86
I see your point.  Are you a player who does not also play IRL (in real life) Dominion games?  I will not speak for others on this site, but this is my perspective, when people ask for an Undo: Are they asking to correct a mistake where, IRL, that mistake would not have occurred?  If so, then I grant the Undo.  *Even if* they have received new information.

For example, earlier in the thread someone mentioned "Lost in the Woods," where you can get a boon at the beginning of your turn by discarding one card.  They way the online game is set up, it is very easy to accidentally select a card in your hand to play, only to see it discarded for Lost Woods.  IRL, that sort of mistake just would not happen.  So, I grant that Undo, *even though* the other player has now seen what the boon will be.  It's just not that big of a deal for me (although I don't blame other players who would do differently in that situation).  And if I granted such an Undo, I would also put a comment in the chat, to the effect of, "No problem to give the Undo.  But only one of those per game."  And I'd make sure I add a 'smiley face', to keep things light and friendly.

[Note:  This has never happened to me.  But if the other player was dashing through her turn AND also repeatedly complaining that I was playing way too slow, I suspect that I would be much more likely to deny an Undo request that was due to her playing too quickly.]  :-)

I don't play it competitively, but I do play it irl. I assume when you take a card and lift your hand from the pile, that's the decision you make. correct?

Most of the undos I get are trashing errors or cards they are new to. I understand both, but I think it is most reasonable to let them learn from their mistakes. If they want to buy a card to learn how it works, they ought to be willing to deal with the negative consequences of doing so, as well as the benefits.

I think too many players have an entitlement complex at this game.

I in no way cheat at this game and do like cheap wins, but why do people expect their opponent in a game to help them? I want you to lose. Go cry. lol.