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Author Topic: Overlord + Conspirator  (Read 646 times)

Offline Mike Thicke

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Overlord + Conspirator
« on: 12 March 2018, 04:22:09 PM »
Conspirator seems to count Overlord as two cards for triggering the draw+action condition.

Eg.

Play Overlord as Mystic, play conspirator -> draw+action

Or

Play Mystic, play Overload as conspirator -> draw+action

Offline Rabid

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #1 on: 12 March 2018, 04:43:05 PM »
I think this is working correctly.

http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Band_of_Misfits

"In this sense, Band of Misfits plays like a Throne Room variant, and one play of Band of Misfits with a successful emulation counts as two Actions played; this matters for Conspirator. "


Offline Mike Thicke

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #2 on: 13 March 2018, 06:12:29 PM »
Huh, that's one of the crazier rulings I've seen.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #3 on: 13 March 2018, 09:04:43 PM »
I *think* it started otherwise: When you played Overlord/BoM, you choose a corresponding card, and then did what that card said, and it counted as that card only.

But then, you were certainly playing Overlord/BoM, because, if not by playing them, why were you putting down a card named Overlord, but allowed it to work as though it had the text of e.g. Scheme?

Then the problem was what to do if you choose to Throne Room an Overlord/BoM, but choose a self-trashing card (e.g. Mining Village) to emulate? No problem for the first time, but Overlord/BoM only stay that card until they leave play, and self-trashing cards leave play earlier than normal. What should it be played as the second time?

So all taken togehter, it makes sense that 'putting down a BoM to clone a Scheme' is actually 2 Actions being played, because you played both the BoM *and* the same physical card that however now looks like a Scheme.

Offline dane

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #4 on: 14 March 2018, 08:11:58 PM »
It did indeed start otherwise.  It was the advent of the +1 card, +1 action etc tokens that caused someone (I think it might have been Jeebus) to question that arrangement, thereby leading Donald to change things.  The rules for those tokens stated that both the tokens on the BoM and the tokens on the impersonated card took effect.  That could only make semse if both BoM and the impersonated card were being played rather than just BoM as the impersonated card.

Up until recently the change was only significant for Conspirator.  I think it's also now significant for Leprechaun.

Offline Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #5 on: 14 March 2018, 09:25:27 PM »
Up until recently the change was only significant for Conspirator.  I think it's also now significant for Leprechaun.

It doesn't matter for Leprechaun which just counts cards in play.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #6 on: 15 March 2018, 02:44:26 AM »
Dane,
"Up until recently the change was only significant for Conspirator.  I think it's also now significant for Leprechaun."


This would also have been significant for calculating the cost of buying a Peddler (each action played lowers the purchase cost, down to a floor of zero), no?

Offline Ingix

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #7 on: 15 March 2018, 09:52:26 AM »
No, Peddler looks at the number of Action cards in play. So it counts Overlord as 'one card' only, but, unlike Conspirator, will take into account your Action-Duration cards that are still in play from previous turns.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #8 on: 15 March 2018, 10:26:47 PM »
Ah, interesting.  Each week, I learn a new, subtle, rule, thanks to these Dominion fora.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #9 on: 16 March 2018, 12:30:17 AM »
When playing a new board game, I usually reread the instructions after 2 to 3 games played. After having actually experienced the actions described in the rules, it is usually much better to understand the rules than when reading them 'dry'.

It often happens that I discover some small or big error we made, usually because most games have some 'balancing rules' that are needed to make a fair game, but are not really necessary to actually execute the game. If there is a tie in some conflict, you look into the rules for some tie-breaker, so you get the correct rule. But if you use the same action 3 times, you may have forgotten the rule that after the second use its cost increases.

With Dominion and its many cards, the same situation arises. When first seeing a card like Coonspirator or Peddler, one remembers that it cares about Actions, but the difference between the actual wording of Conspirator and Peddler will elude most players escpecially as they are often not important.

So I encourage you to actually carefully read through cards again, maybe your physical cards or on Dominon Online, or here, where you can search for any card in the upper right box. After having played with them a few times, you will now much better remember what they actually say after reading them, instead of the incomplete picture you remember from 'first seeing them'.

Offline dane

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #10 on: 16 March 2018, 08:16:04 PM »
Up until recently the change was only significant for Conspirator.  I think it's also now significant for Leprechaun.

It doesn't matter for Leprechaun which just counts cards in play.
That's what comes of relying on my memory rather than going to the trouble of checking the wording of Leprechaun.

Offline YooperJake

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #11 on: 17 March 2018, 05:24:16 PM »
I just have to chime in on this. 

/*
Edit:  added portion after initial post

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I have read the wiki entries and understand what it says there, 
"Other Rules clarifications
You first play Band of Misfits, then you play it again as the card you chose to emulate
."

BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhh maybe it all DOES Make sense, I'm still posting this...I...just..can't...done.
*/
Card text for BoM:
"Play this as if it were a cheaper action card in the Supply.  THIS IS THAT CARD until it leaves play". <my emphasis added>

Card text for Overlord:
"Play this as if it were an action card in the Supply costing up to 5.  THIS IS THAT CARD until it leaves play".   <my emphasis added>

Card text for Conspirator:
"+$2. If you've played 3 or more Actions this turn (including this), +1 Card and +1 Action."

Peddler card text:
"During your Buy phase, this costs $2 less per Action card you have in play, but not less than $0."


Let's assume the following scenario:
I open my turn by playing an Overlord and choose Mystic.  Next I play a Conspirator, giving me +$2.

Questions:
(A) Assuming I play no more Actions, and Peddlers are in the Supply, how much will they cost during my Buy phase?
(B) Do I also get +1 Action and +1 Card from playing the Conspirator?

To answer (A), we need to know how many Actions I have in play during my Buy phase.  To me, unlike question (B) above, this is a very easy answer.  It seems quite clear to me that I have 2 Actions in play.  Peddlers would therefore cost $4 during my Buy phase.

  • Do I have an Overlord in play?  - NO
  • Do I have a Mystic in play?  - YES
  • Do I have a Conspirator in play?  - YES

To know the answer to (B), we need to know how many Actions I have played this turn.

  • Have I played an Overlord this turn?  - No/Maybe (tricky part)
  • Have I played a Mystic this turn? - Yes/Maybe? (tricky part)
  • Have I played a Conspirator this turn?  - YES


For question one, what does, "Play this as if it were" mean?  Does it mean act like you're a Mystic, but really you are still an Overlord?  The latter portion of the card text clearly states that, while in play, it's literally NOT an Overlord, but a Mystic (meaning of the word IS for you 90s American politics fans).  ;)

Executing the meaning of the command "Play this..." literally means to put in play (what else can "play" mean?).  Therefore, if I put a card in play, "as if it IS" a Mystic, what have I done except played a Mystic?

Given that when in play, the Overlord card is no longer an Overlord, but a Mystic, we can say that the Overlord which was in my hand has transformed at some point into a Mystic.   The heart of the matter seems to be, when does this transformation take place? 

What does it mean to "have played" a card?  For me, the answer can only be that to play a card means to put it in play.  By this definition, it's very difficult to "play" an Overlord (or BoM).  The only scenario in which you can have an Overlord in play is if there are no eligible Action cards in the supply for it to transform into.  IMHO, that is the only scenario in which one could have an Overlord in play.  How then could we assert that I have played an Overlord in our scenario above?  I can't.

Looking forward to your feedback.

Cheers,
Jake

Offline dane

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #12 on: 17 March 2018, 07:49:28 PM »
Think of it this way...

You can't execute the instructions on an Action card until you play it.  So first you must play the BoM/Overlord to be able to follow the instruction to play it as another card.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #13 on: 17 March 2018, 07:54:56 PM »
Executing the meaning of the command "Play this..." literally means to put in play (what else can "play" mean?).  Therefore, if I put a card in play, "as if it IS" a Mystic, what have I done except played a Mystic?

Playing a card means 2 things in Dominion:
  • Putting it into play from the place it is 'supposed to be'.
  • Executing the 'on-play' text of the card.

In this case, the first part does nothing (the card is already in play), so the second
part is the only one that happens.

Given that when in play, the Overlord card is no longer an Overlord, but a Mystic, we can say that the Overlord which was in my hand has transformed at some point into a Mystic.   The heart of the matter seems to be, when does this transformation take place?


During the execution of the Overlord's on-play text.

The only scenario in which you can have an Overlord in play is if there are no eligible Action cards in the supply for it to transform into.  IMHO, that is the only scenario in which one could have an Overlord in play.  How then could we assert that I have played an Overlord in our scenario above?  I can't.

There is a difference between a card being in play, and it being played. And if you say you have never played the Overlord, by what reason do you justify treating that peace of cardboard sitting in front of you that clearly has "Overlord" written as its name as a Mystic? That only happens because you played Overlord and executed it's text.

As always, new kinds of effects (and it was new for Band of Misfits) always raise questions, because they expand what is previously known about how the game works. If you were around when Magic started, that was basically a constant occurance for new expansions for a long time. There are often several models to get what is 'obviously intended' for the normal cases, but that differ on details for edge cases.

Initially I *think* the idea was that Overlord transforms while in hand, so you act like you only played the Mystic. But that would be in contrast to the other  Dominion cards, which all only work (when played) in play.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Overlord + Conspirator
« Reply #14 on: 23 April 2018, 01:58:47 AM »
Yes, Ingix has it right.

I'm not entirely sure how the original timing of "old" BoM was supposed to be, but we were theorizing that the only way to make it work was that it had a "when you would play" timing, similar to the "when you would gain" timing of Possession and Trader. So when you decide to play BoM, before you actually play it, you choose an action card, and then when you get around to playing it, it's that card.

But just to be clear, that's not how it works now. Now it's actually less weird, since you play it and then follow the instructions, just like all other cards.