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Author Topic: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays  (Read 150 times)

Offline AdamH

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Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« on: 04 May 2018, 03:43:00 PM »
Right now the Boon pile (also the Hex pile) has a display like this:

Boons 8 / 4

Every single time I look at this I am confused as to which one is the draw pile and which one is the discard pile. Like, yes I know it's 8 in the draw pile but I had to go look that up on a video.

The rulebook doesn't clearly state whether or not you're allowed to look through or count the Boon discard pile anyways -- I would think that having a consistent interface throughout the software would be preferable here -- you usually see a counter for every deck telling you how many cards are in it, but nothing for a discard pile.

So I think it should read "Boons 8" instead. Or maybe if you reeeeeeally want to include that information, you could do "Boons 8 / (4)". But at that point you probably need to make the information available as to which boons are in the discard pile, which doesn't seem like the right direction to go.

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« Reply #1 on: 15 May 2018, 02:48:09 AM »
This is also confusing to me, and I like your suggestion.

"Boons 8"

Offline Ingix

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Re: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« Reply #2 on: 15 May 2018, 09:35:37 AM »
There is no similiar display for 'normal' piles because there is no discard pile for Villages, etc. That is something new for boons/hexes.

Now, I can understand if somebody is confused what these 2 numbers mean. But once you know that it means the remaining/discarded boons/hexes, I'm frankly a bit at a loss to understand that seasoned players could not remember which is which. Especially as the important number (how many until a shuffle) is the first one.

Basically, in a game where some information is still not easily seen, you are asking to remove information. And while it may not matter for hexes where the hex pile and hex discard pile will always add up to 12, the boon pile + boon discard pile can have any number from 0 to 12 cards, due to the 'stay out intil clean-up' boons, a Druid in the Kingdom or one or more boons set aside for next turn with Blessed Village.

Offline markus

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Re: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« Reply #3 on: 15 May 2018, 11:58:16 AM »
Although you don't miss a lot, if you don't base your decision on whether a specific Boon will miss a shuffle.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« Reply #4 on: 15 May 2018, 01:26:18 PM »
Now, I can understand if somebody is confused what these 2 numbers mean. But once you know that it means the remaining/discarded boons/hexes, I'm frankly a bit at a loss to understand that seasoned players could not remember which is which. Especially as the important number (how many until a shuffle) is the first one.

I'm sorry I disappointed you with my lack of mental capacity, yet here we are, and I'm telling you that I have been told what it is and it's still confusing. I even offered some extremely simple fixes that would solve the problem.

It's not so much about missing the shuffle as it is about tracking the boon deck. I just saw Flame's Gift and I want to have an idea of how long it will be before there's even a chance that I'll see it again. 9/3, huh? Does that mean it could come up soon or I'm going to have to wait a while? Jeez, I don't remember, but I don't want to have to look that up.

For other decks/discards, the number is clearly put on the deck for how many cards are in it. I realize that 95% of the time the number is something other than 6 or 9 for my opponent's deck, but when it is I'm confused 100% of the time on whether that number is being displayed upside down like their deck is, or if it's being displayed right-side-up so I can read it easier. Yes I know that almost all of the time it's obvious but in that moment it's not, and all you have to do is underline all of the numbers to fix it!

I'm thinking about 55 different things in Dominion because it's a complex game and I want to play well AND get better while playing. That's why Dominion is fun. UI quirks where information isn't totally clear as it's being displayed really take away from that. I can tell you for certain that I'm not the only one who is being affected by this, so making excuses and saying that it must be me is not appreciated.

Basically, in a game where some information is still not easily seen, you are asking to remove information. And while it may not matter for hexes where the hex pile and hex discard pile will always add up to 12, the boon pile + boon discard pile can have any number from 0 to 12 cards, due to the 'stay out intil clean-up' boons, a Druid in the Kingdom or one or more boons set aside for next turn with Blessed Village.

I'm only suggesting to remove the information if it's not supposed to be displayed because of the game rules. It's just like the cards in my opponent's hand that I can randomly see -- this should never ever happen and this excuse of "other information is harder to see" doesn't hold water at all. I want to see everything I should see easily and I don't want to see things I shouldn't see, is that really so difficult to understand?

Offline Ingix

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Re: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« Reply #5 on: 15 May 2018, 03:21:21 PM »
I'm sorry I disappointed you with my lack of mental capacity, yet here we are, and I'm telling you that I have been told what it is and it's still confusing. I even offered some extremely simple fixes that would solve the problem.

I certainly did not want to belittle you in any way. But again I found it strange that this notation that seams 'easy to remember' to *me* causes you that much confusion.

For other decks/discards, the number is clearly put on the deck for how many cards are in it. I realize that 95% of the time the number is something other than 6 or 9 for my opponent's deck, but when it is I'm confused 100% of the time on whether that number is being displayed upside down like their deck is, or if it's being displayed right-side-up so I can read it easier. Yes I know that almost all of the time it's obvious but in that moment it's not, and all you have to do is underline all of the numbers to fix it!

If only a 6/9/66... is underlined, as in the appended picture, would that be OK? This is just test code, in the end I think I would not want the numbers in the supply piles and elsewhere be affected.

UI quirks where information isn't totally clear as it's being displayed really take away from that. I can tell you for certain that I'm not the only one who is being affected by this, so making excuses and saying that it must be me is not appreciated.

The UI needs to be concise, because screen real estate is not limitless. Even adding "discarded" to the second number seems not to be possible without severely shriking the font size.

I'm only suggesting to remove the information if it's not supposed to be displayed because of the game rules.

I looked through the Nocturne rules, and they don't seem to say either way (I may have missed it). So to me it is not at all clear if one is or is not supposed to see those numbers/may be able to count those piles in an IRL game.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« Reply #6 on: 15 May 2018, 03:31:15 PM »
If only a 6/9/66... is underlined, as in the appended picture, would that be OK? This is just test code, in the end I think I would not want the numbers in the supply piles and elsewhere be affected.

Yeah, I would actually prefer that to underlining everything.


I looked through the Nocturne rules, and they don't seem to say either way (I may have missed it). So to me it is not at all clear if one is or is not supposed to see those numbers/may be able to count those piles in an IRL game.

I looked as well before making my first post and I couldn't find anything. Perhaps it's worth it to ask for a ruling on this? My guess is that DXV would say no but that's just a guess.

Offline markus

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Re: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« Reply #7 on: 15 May 2018, 03:50:54 PM »
I think the main problem is that there's a bug with the counter such that the big number gets stuck at 0. If it said "10 Boons (10/2)", it should be clear.

Offline dane

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Re: Boons/Hexes draw/discard pile displays
« Reply #8 on: 15 May 2018, 06:29:49 PM »
I looked through the Nocturne rules, and they don't seem to say either way (I may have missed it). So to me it is not at all clear if one is or is not supposed to see those numbers/may be able to count those piles in an IRL game.

I looked as well before making my first post and I couldn't find anything. Perhaps it's worth it to ask for a ruling on this? My guess is that DXV would say no but that's just a guess.
While it might well be that IRL one is not allowed to count the boon/hex discard pile for the same reason one is not allowed to count one's own discard pile, namely to avoid seeing what's there, the number of boons/hexes in the discard pile can be calculated by counting the number in the deck and looking round the table for any that are elsewhere.