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Author Topic: Game reset to beginning after granting undo  (Read 684 times)

Offline DemonGenius

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Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« on: 24 June 2018, 05:58:56 AM »
Game #15752144

Near the end of the game, the opposing player requested an undo which I granted. The game immediately reset to the initial state and we had to start over from the beginning, same game number, same kingdom.

This was particularly frustrating since in the original game I was winning, but in the reset game, I was too distracted trying to figure out what went wrong so I could report it and ended up losing.

My hope is that foul play isn't a factor here as that threatens the user experience of this game more so than just a simple bug.

Offline markus

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #1 on: 24 June 2018, 11:35:24 AM »
One explanation would be that your opponent asked for an undo to the start. The request mentions the number of steps to be undone. If you didn't notice that and accept, it wouldn't be a bug.

If your opponent only clicked undo, it must be some unlikely bug to occur, because this is not a widespread phenomenon. The nature of resetting the game also means that I can't load it now to the state at which that occured. So if you remember what exactly he wanted to undo it might be useful.

Offline DemonGenius

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #2 on: 24 June 2018, 07:27:34 PM »
Honestly, I had no idea that was a feature, to undo the whole game. My opinion is that feature shouldn't exist. Like the player I was up against, anyone could take advantage of this and dickishly undo any game they were losing against with their opponent thinking they were being nice and undoing a single move. With the speed at which most players click, this is very easy to pull off on anyone.

Undoing moves outside the current turn needs to be explicitly communicated to the player granting the undos, or completely removed from the game. If this doesn't happen, I can only see myself refusing all undos for everyone to prevent what happened to me from happening again.

I don't like that, and I'm sure my future opponents won't like that much either, but what other choice to I have to thwart cheaters and poor sports other than quitting this game altogether?

Offline jsh

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #3 on: 24 June 2018, 11:29:57 PM »
Read the undo request next time. If it is skiing to take back more than a couple of steps, it's probably not a good idea to accept it.

Offline Stef

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #4 on: 25 June 2018, 06:34:08 PM »
I don't like that, and I'm sure my future opponents won't like that much either, but what other choice to I have to thwart cheaters and poor sports other than quitting this game altogether?

You are free to complain about whatever you want to complain. Just stating that it literally says "Request to undo X steps" where X is the number of steps your opponent asks to go back. And personally, I have been happy that option was available many many times.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #5 on: 25 June 2018, 08:22:42 PM »
Would it be too much trouble to make that window more descriptive? You could put in the turn number they're requesting to undo to ("Request to undo 55 steps (turn 10)"), or the number of turns that would be undone ("Request to undo 55 steps (10 turns)"). "Steps" is not a concept that exists in Dominion so having that be the only information someone has to go by can be confusing.

It's quite easy for the person requesting the undo to see where it's going back to, if they use the "/undo" feature and click on a dot. There is no similar thing that exists for the other people in the game.

It's also a bit disappointing that you're so quick to blame user error when there's something the software could be doing better to help. I feel like DemonGenius's position here is perfectly reasonable.

Offline jsh

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #6 on: 25 June 2018, 09:56:33 PM »
I think it's reasonable to get more information, and I certainly don't think anyone is faulting the user for that request. However, because the message does indicate the number of steps, it's also not a game-breaking issue that would justify this line:

"what other choice to I have to thwart cheaters and poor sports other than quitting this game altogether?"

Offline Cave-O-Sapien

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #7 on: 25 June 2018, 10:23:35 PM »
Would it be too much trouble to make that window more descriptive? You could put in the turn number they're requesting to undo to ("Request to undo 55 steps (turn 10)"), or the number of turns that would be undone ("Request to undo 55 steps (10 turns)"). "Steps" is not a concept that exists in Dominion so having that be the only information someone has to go by can be confusing.

If I see someone request to undo 55 of anything, I'm going to think twice about it. I don't care what they're called.

On the other hand, for 99% of undo requests, adding the turn wouldn't tell us anything useful. Maybe include it for requests that go back more than one turn?

Offline AdamH

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #8 on: 26 June 2018, 04:50:28 AM »
Umm, sure. 55 was a placeholder number, and maybe it would be fine to just print the line if it's a big undo. That would probably get all of the information across, but I haven't thought about that yet so maybe I'm missing something.

it's also not a game-breaking issue

I think there's a fundamental disconnect about what a game-breaking issue is. If the software is implementing the game rules under the hood, I feel like most people here would not call it a game-breaking issue. While this is necessary, it is NOT sufficient. The software's job is not only to execute the mechanics of the game but also to display them to the user. If something is being displayed incorrectly or inadequately, that's a failure of the software. The software is not meeting its most basic requirements at that point.

So yes I would consider this a game-breaking issue. When someone goes through the trouble of telling you something about your software that needs to be better, and it's important enough that they're willing to stop using the software over that issue, I feel like the right attitude to take is to work with that person to figure out what the core issue is and see what can reasonably done about it. And what's happened here seems defensive and dismissive.

Offline yed

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #9 on: 26 June 2018, 06:59:47 AM »
I would like to see the undo relevant part of the log highlighted (red background).

Offline DemonGenius

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #10 on: 26 June 2018, 04:05:16 PM »
As a professional software developer myself, I have to give AdamH kudos for examining an issue outside the nuts and bolts of the software itself and looking at the relationship the software (and its creators) has with its users.

Too many developers have a "blame the user" attitude towards their work and I feel that that's a major cause of our profession being held in disrepute, indirectly contributing to the mass depression of our wages across the market.

As related to my issue in question, I still feel as though the undo mechanic is fundamentally broken. For instance, how would any of you feel about playing chess with someone who asks to undo moves to the beginning of the game because he was losing? Most people would consider that, at the very least, an implicit resignation. What if there was a rule in chess that someone can do this via whatever means possible? How much would any of you want to play chess then?

Just like dynamite breaks the game of rock-paper-scissors, enabling undos to the beginning of the game breaks ShuffleIT Dominion. Multiple undos really should just be restricted to the current turn, or this feature should be configurable for the user with it being disabled by default. The use case for multiple turn undos is really too narrow to be applied across the board as it is now.

Offline DemonGenius

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #11 on: 26 June 2018, 04:29:27 PM »
Quote
I think it's reasonable to get more information, and I certainly don't think anyone is faulting the user for that request. However, because the message does indicate the number of steps, it's also not a game-breaking issue that would justify this line:

"what other choice to I have to thwart cheaters and poor sports other than quitting this game altogether?"

Sorry, but it's never the supplier's decision what is justifiable from the perspective of the customer (unless you're Apple). Sure there's bad customers, and firing them (or banning toxic players) can help increase your revenue. However, a patronizing attitude towards your customers (particularly by blaming them instead of helping them) is a great way to hemorrhage revenue and brand value.

Luckily, I just happen to really like Dominion and won't be going anywhere soon, save for some egregious error on the part of the maintainers.

Offline jsh

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #12 on: 26 June 2018, 04:56:43 PM »
Quote
I think it's reasonable to get more information, and I certainly don't think anyone is faulting the user for that request. However, because the message does indicate the number of steps, it's also not a game-breaking issue that would justify this line:

"what other choice to I have to thwart cheaters and poor sports other than quitting this game altogether?"

Sorry, but it's never the supplier's decision what is justifiable from the perspective of the customer (unless you're Apple). Sure there's bad customers, and firing them (or banning toxic players) can help increase your revenue. However, a patronizing attitude towards your customers (particularly by blaming them instead of helping them) is a great way to hemorrhage revenue and brand value.

Luckily, I just happen to really like Dominion and won't be going anywhere soon, save for some egregious error on the part of the maintainers.

I don't work for shuffleit

Offline DemonGenius

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Re: Game reset to beginning after granting undo
« Reply #13 on: 26 June 2018, 05:52:34 PM »
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I don't work for shuffleit

Never said you did. And as an outsider to ShuffleIT, you have even less say in what their customers find justifiable than even they do, unless you are the customer in question.