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Author Topic: This community is broken  (Read 1498 times)

Offline Fastman

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This community is broken
« on: 25 July 2018, 04:30:14 AM »
Hello

I thought a lot before posting this, but as a long term player of many online games, I see taht this community is either broken or something deeply doesn't work in how it's run bu the admins.

- People insulting in chat for a game.
No option to mute the chat, no "report" button (which is everywhere but here) and when people complain in the forum the best they are told is "blacklist those players". Which is frustrating when one just wants justice dealt.

- Trolls troll and they don't get banned.
People join the forum discussion stating they're a troll and nobody does anything about it.

- Players have nasty behaviours.
A lot of times I got messaegs in the chat like "you're just lucky" or the annoying "GG" ages before the game is over. One time the player kept on saying that for three turns because I was in lead and he thought I was buying the last province. Result? I had bad cards for 3 turns and he managed to overcome me and then buy the last province. How frustrating is that?
Not only, people rarely end the game as soon as possible. They want to get the more points possible, even if it's clear that the game is over and they won.  When this starts, I resign.

- People complaining about the right behaviour.
People here in the forum come even to complain for people resigning when the game is lost. What should a normal person do? Sit and watch someone playing and playing because they don't want to end the game? I've been there, no thanks, but at least do not whine about me resigning.

- Pepole losing time on purpose.
Yes, you probably get banned for that (at least for one reason you do!) but you still have to resign and hope it works. If it doesn't, he trolled you and won the game and you have nothing.

- People minding their own business and doing other stuff white playing.
I do not do other stuff while playing. It's called "RESPECT". Instead, I have a lot of people vanishing during a game and coming back 2 minutes after saying "Sorry, phone call" or "Sorry I'm playing two games in the same time". COME ON! You serious?

I can count on examples all day long, still the fact is that I never encountered such a throng of unpolite and disrespectufl players in an online game.

And since I don't think that Dominion is somewhat a magnet for trolls, I have to think that this community isn't handled properly by its runners, whoever they are.

Too bad, because people PAY for this and they get a really bad service IMHO.

Hope that more people complain and something starts moving because this is actually unbearable, the forum is literally FILLED with complaints and nothing happens.

Cheers

Offline AdamH

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #1 on: 25 July 2018, 01:14:45 PM »
Yeah I agree pretty strongly with most of your points. It's unfortunate that this is the state of things and it's also unfortunate that the only person (people?) out there with the power to do anything about it aren't going to do anything for whatever reason.

I guess out of your 7 points I will sort of disagree with one of them...

- People minding their own business and doing other stuff white playing.
I do not do other stuff while playing. It's called "RESPECT". Instead, I have a lot of people vanishing during a game and coming back 2 minutes after saying "Sorry, phone call" or "Sorry I'm playing two games in the same time". COME ON! You serious?

I mean, when I don't have 100% of attention to devote to a game I will either do something else or play a bot, but I usually give the benefit of the doubt to people in these situations. I've always used the maxim "just assume they had to change a diaper" and it makes me feel a little bit better, but you always have the blacklist to get rid of people who you would rather not play with for reasons like this. I realize this seems like an empty suggestion given that the blacklist is currently the only power users have to deal with a variety of things that are real issues, but hey the blacklist actually seems good to use here!

...but at the same time, the real solution would be to have a timer system that would work better. Unfortunately, that's a problem with the game and not with the online client or the community. The game was designed as a tabletop game where enforcing a timer isn't necessary or even desirable. I don't think there's a good solution to this, but that will probably be an issue with any online client we get in the future, which will hopefully be run by someone who can deal with the rest of the issues you've brought up.

Offline Ingix

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #2 on: 25 July 2018, 03:58:36 PM »
First, of course, thanks for your honest opinion.

- People insulting in chat for a game.

- Players have nasty behaviours.

- People complaining about the right behaviour.

- Pepole losing time on purpose.

- People minding their own business and doing other stuff white playing.

So in one sentence: Players behaving like idiots.

I can count on examples all day long, still the fact is that I never encountered such a throng of unpolite and disrespectufl players in an online game.

This is astonishing. According to all the reports in the games media, player toxicity is a mayor or the mayor problem of competitive online games. Players insult *teammates* in games like Overwatch. In other words: Players behaving like idiots seems to be the norm, not the exception.


And since I don't think that Dominion is somewhat a magnet for trolls, I have to think that this community isn't handled properly by its runners, whoever they are.

The big question is how frequent this is. I remember roughly a year ago when lots of players reported abusive behaviour, mostly with slow-players. This died down after a while, so I *assumed* that the scope of the problem has decreased.


Too bad, because people PAY for this and they get a really bad service IMHO.

Hope that more people complain and something starts moving because this is actually unbearable, the forum is literally FILLED with complaints and nothing happens.

Can you point out a few from last month? I visit the forums daily and of course I see complaints, but they happen at a rate of say 1 per day. Since forum activity is down, it may look like much, but in absolute numbers it is small.

One last comment, about something you wrote very near the start:


Which is frustrating when one just wants justice dealt.

This seems to be a common attitude: Somebody did something bad to me, so I want somebody else to deal out justice.
 
I understand it and certainly I feel and felt that way on many occasions. But the philosophy behind what is done in this game is that the impact on the player experience for the 'nice and friendly' players should be minimized. You blacklist the person that did something you did not like, and move on. Players that get excessivly blacklisted will be looked at.

Of course, it may be that the problems got out of hand and more drastic measures should be taken. But I don't see evidence that this is true.

Again, thanks for your posting!

Offline daavor

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #3 on: 25 July 2018, 08:34:16 PM »


Which is frustrating when one just wants justice dealt.

This seems to be a common attitude: Somebody did something bad to me, so I want somebody else to deal out justice.
 
I understand it and certainly I feel and felt that way on many occasions. But the philosophy behind what is done in this game is that the impact on the player experience for the 'nice and friendly' players should be minimized. You blacklist the person that did something you did not like, and move on. Players that get excessivly blacklisted will be looked at.

Of course, it may be that the problems got out of hand and more drastic measures should be taken. But I don't see evidence that this is true.

Again, thanks for your posting!

I don't want to touch the etiquette issues that were brought up in his post, but I think this really needs to be addressed. When someone gets abused in a game, they generally want to not interact with that person again. This software allows that pretty easily. (I've had an account since release so I can't really speak to the new player experience, but I would question how obvious it is to new players that a lightning bolt is the blacklist button).

But they also want justice. Or to put it in another light, maybe just maybe players don't want other people to have to go through what they did?

It may be the most efficient and simple way for a small company to do it, but people DO NOT think of this in terms of statistics. The guy who directs slurs at me once is going to impact my feelings about a game a lot more than a vague sense that the people who accumulate enough slow playing blacklists to alert the mods is getting banned.

This is made more pressing by the obvious differences in etiquette. Some people want to blacklist anyone who will resign on them mid game. Others want to blacklist people who say gg mid turn, or who overbuy points or who spend any time thinking. With this much fracturing in the use of the blacklist feature, the sense of it meaning anything except in avoiding that particular account is heavily diluted.

People want a report button. I want a button that is saying "I think this person's behaviour is seriously harmful to the community, I don't want anyone to have to play with them" not just "I find this person's timing/etiquette annoying please don't make me play with them" . Now I'm sure people would overuse the report button. I'm sure some among us would report minor breaches of "etiquette".

Personally I trust ShuffleIT enough to be satisfied with the current system. But for newer players the current model is very different to a standard report button. It gives the impression: "Yeah if you don't want to play with that person who just cursed at you for 'getting lucky' we wont make you, but we accept them as a part of the community unless they become statistically anomalous enough for us to care." Coming from some online communities that might seem par for the course and fine. Coming from others it will seem sort of cold and uncaring.

Honestly...just give a report and blacklist feature, and prioritize those over standard blacklists.

Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #4 on: 25 July 2018, 09:08:02 PM »
One very easy-to-implement and successful feature can be this one:

you press the lightning button. A sub menu appears with a radio button.

- Insulting or bad words
- Abusive playing
- Slowing the game on purpose
- Other personal reasons.

So if a player gets too many "blacklist" for the very same reason, it gets to the mods attention.
It's a report button, but, if you press it, you wouldn't be able to play with that player anymore so you cannot abuse the feature.

Then, I read that players are banned with no warnings. This is also wrong.
I strongly enforce correction, not removal.

Warning that some behaviour is seriouslu leading to a banning via a message, will correct the player's behaviour.

Offline RobGlass

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #5 on: 26 July 2018, 01:16:43 AM »
I don't think the community is broken, per se, but I do think I've seen problems like this consistently over my time here and it isn't conducive to community building.

What I will say point blank is that the idea that the blacklist button should solve these problems has never seemed to go down well in the threads that I've read, and personally it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a smaller problem. Especially because A. the act of blocking someone from playing me feels hostile and I don't always want to do that, and B. the way that blacklist is always pitched is "If someone gets blacklisted enough time that'll start the process for a ban" and I don't think some of the problems outlined above should trigger that and I don't want some of these people banned.

Two examples:

I just played two games (16715419 and 16715590)  with someone who resigned early in both games and accused me of cheating each time. I didn't, obviously, but that's annoying. I don't want to blacklist him but I also think accusations of cheating shouldn't be tolerated.

Another set of games I played with someone a while back were nice, we had a small friendly chat going. In one game, though, he made the blanket accusation that I was copying his strategy. I wasn't, I had delayed buying the trasher that was the core of his strategy until after he'd started buying IGGs. It was an annoying experience, but on the whole he was a pleasant opponent who played well.



Neither of those is ban worthy. Each of those, if they're a pattern of behaviour, could be worthy of a "Don't be a pillock" e-mail or even banning someone from being able to use the chat function in games. And I'd feel better with a report function that just let me do that. I also feel that one of the things that online games have taught us (like Overwatch, cited above) is that if people think there could be immediate consequences for anti-social behaviour they start behaving better in the long run. The blacklist feature has proven itself not to have that deterrent value.

Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #6 on: 26 July 2018, 01:21:19 AM »
I also feel that one of the things that online games have taught us (like Overwatch, cited above) is that if people think there could be immediate consequences for anti-social behaviour they start behaving better in the long run. The blacklist feature has proven itself not to have that deterrent value.

I totally second this.

Offline daavor

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #7 on: 26 July 2018, 03:00:01 AM »
I don't think the community is broken, per se, but I do think I've seen problems like this consistently over my time here and it isn't conducive to community building.

What I will say point blank is that the idea that the blacklist button should solve these problems has never seemed to go down well in the threads that I've read, and personally it feels like taking a sledgehammer to a smaller problem. Especially because A. the act of blocking someone from playing me feels hostile and I don't always want to do that, and B. the way that blacklist is always pitched is "If someone gets blacklisted enough time that'll start the process for a ban" and I don't think some of the problems outlined above should trigger that and I don't want some of these people banned.

Two examples:

I just played two games (16715419 and 16715590)  with someone who resigned early in both games and accused me of cheating each time. I didn't, obviously, but that's annoying. I don't want to blacklist him but I also think accusations of cheating shouldn't be tolerated.

Another set of games I played with someone a while back were nice, we had a small friendly chat going. In one game, though, he made the blanket accusation that I was copying his strategy. I wasn't, I had delayed buying the trasher that was the core of his strategy until after he'd started buying IGGs. It was an annoying experience, but on the whole he was a pleasant opponent who played well.



Neither of those is ban worthy. Each of those, if they're a pattern of behaviour, could be worthy of a "Don't be a pillock" e-mail or even banning someone from being able to use the chat function in games. And I'd feel better with a report function that just let me do that. I also feel that one of the things that online games have taught us (like Overwatch, cited above) is that if people think there could be immediate consequences for anti-social behaviour they start behaving better in the long run. The blacklist feature has proven itself not to have that deterrent value.


I've never viewed blacklisting people as particularly hostile. If you run into someone at a bar and find them annoying its not hostile to not seek out their company in the future. If you dont like the way someone plays or acts, just blacklist them. This is admittedly also shaped by experience with other platforms with clearly delineated categories of "Ignore" and "Report".

That said, I think the other thing is that the threat of random bans descending quickly even if not totally systematically for single instances of harassment is a far better way to deal with persistent trolls than the current model. A troll in the current system can make an account and play on it for hours before the blacklists pile up enough to alert a mod.


Offline Ingix

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #8 on: 26 July 2018, 10:17:33 AM »
Again, thanks for all the thoughts on that issue.

One thing to remember is that (according to what I've heeard) almost(?) all bans are for free accounts. The players using them are not invested in them usually, that is they don't want to protect their ratings etc. It's a small step to open TrollAccount45 if TrollAccount44 is banned. It apparently even happens for games like Counterstrike that cost money each time you buy it anew.

Also, to dispel any illusions you probably don't have: This is not an operation that has the resources (like Blizzard) to look at lots of in-game chat protocals and find out if it is abusive/harrasive, etc.

I do agree that there should be an in-game way to report something, like slow-playing or abusive chat.

Offline Rabid

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #9 on: 26 July 2018, 10:38:52 AM »
I think most people would agree there is room for improvement to the reporting system.
But the real question is: Is it worth using limited development time on it?
When the time could be better spent on other features.

Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #10 on: 26 July 2018, 10:59:25 AM »
I think most people would agree there is room for improvement to the reporting system.
But the real question is: Is it worth using limited development time on it?
When the time could be better spent on other features.

My answer is 100% yes.
My gamind experience is frequently ruined.
But I can cope with people having different needs.

Offline mark1878

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #11 on: 26 July 2018, 11:36:23 AM »
I totally agree the going slow is a pain well over 10% of games have this. (writing this whilst waiting for player to time out)

At least let me block someone during a game.
It might alkso help if I could note why I blocked someone - make that private

Usefule information for the developers re prorities would be - How many games are ended by forcing someone to resign?

Offline Martin plays Piano

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #12 on: 26 July 2018, 04:30:35 PM »
Hi,
the community is certainly not completely broken, but perhaps it is much too open to be abused accordingly. For me the main problem is that every new user is immediately allowed to do EVERYTHING here - there is no period of probation, no public reputation and above all it doesn't cost a cent - all this makes it so easy for a troll to reinvent himself 10 times a day - and before the mods intervene, 100 trolls with the same account run through the community.
Some thoughts:
a)   There are generally 2 groups - paying and non-paying members
- If you don't pay, you can only play Base Set (against bots)
- If you don’t pay, you will be auto-matched with Base players only – waiting for expansions isn’t any longer allowed
- If you don’t pay, you only can play expansions with your (paying) friends by joining a game
- If you don’t pay, you can’t enter the leaderboard (to get rid of alts)
- Only if you have paid, you are allowed to play with expansions to host your own games

b)   “Newbies” are players with less than 50/100 games with humans, regardless they are paying or non-paying members
- “Newbies” must prove themselves - they have to earn personal reputation points first before they are “Full Members” of the community
- “Newbies” should always get a mandatory voting from “Full Members” after the game (thumb up / thumb down)
- The “Newbie” status and the number of thumbs is flagged out publicly to all players - this can also be used as a filter in a “Full members” preferences for auto matching
- “Newbies” can’t vote for other players – even not for other “Newbies”
- “Newbies” can’t enter the leaderboard
- If the difference of Thumbs up vs. Thumbs down is higher than X a “Newbie" will be introduced ceremonially as a “Full Member” to the community
- Occasionally some “Newbies” will need some more games than 50/100 to get this level

c)   Of course, also “Full members” can be abusive or they can mutate to a troll
- “Full members” can propose a defined time window per turn (fast, medium, slow, endless) before the game starts – those who agreed on “fast” can be kicked after 1 minute
- Full members do not necessarily receive a rating after the game, but a player always can do this, if he wants to (this may be the old blacklist feature then)
- Blacklist features should be clustered into ”Intended Slowplay” / ”Quitting” / ”Language” / ”Foul play”
- Blacklist accumulations for “Full members” can be observed from the Shuffle IT mods to start the banning process with clear and public rules
- “Full members” have the option to press a report button while the game is running - if required, a mod can switch into the current game.

d)   Further annoyances
- Using the same IP address in the same game is not allowed (or it can only be used for unrated games)
- Alternative accounts (if known) are publicly displayed or flagged

May be much too much, but this is the way other platforms are acting successfully.

Offline mark1878

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #13 on: 27 July 2018, 02:39:39 PM »
The numbers of people just leaving is increasing.

But then looking at the page the resign button is hidden behind the log - ie the four entries Kingdom/Log/?/Resign does not fit on a line and so Resign wraps to the next line but the Log does not move down.

Perhaps putting resign more prominently might help.

Offline mark1878

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #14 on: 27 July 2018, 02:52:48 PM »
Much interesting stuff here but somethings are too much.


b)   “Newbies” are players with less than 50/100 games with humans, regardless they are paying or non-paying members
- “Newbies” must prove themselves - they have to earn personal reputation points first before they are “Full Members” of the community
- “Newbies” should always get a mandatory voting from “Full Members” after the game (thumb up / thumb down)
This I disagree with on some sites I have been voted down just for winning and as I had played the game in real life I was better than many non newbies so found it difficult to play with people.
Use of blacklist flags that can be checked ie quitting, Language can be used as negatives as they are observable to a third party.

Quote
- “Newbies” can’t enter the leaderboard
No they need to  know how good they are.

Quote
c)   Of course, also “Full members” can be abusive or they can mutate to a troll
- “Full members” can propose a defined time window per turn (fast, medium, slow, endless) before the game starts – those who agreed on “fast” can be kicked after 1 minute
Sometimes the state can be odd so the odd turn could be longer so kicking without response for a minute is problametical.
Another site has something like a chess clock so that some moves can be slower.
Quote

- Blacklist features should be clustered into ”Intended Slowplay” / ”Quitting” / ”Language” / ”Foul play”

add other as well so you can blacklist just if you don't like the player but there is nothing objectional to others.

Quote

d)   Further annoyances
- Using the same IP address in the same game is not allowed (or it can only be used for unrated games)

This stops housemates, family members or people in the same company or campus playing. Given Dominion is so much less fiddly online than with cards and also checks your move is valid for newbies I don't think this is a good idea.


Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #15 on: 01 August 2018, 01:55:56 AM »
Happeend AGAIN.

I lose by mere 3 points to a player who keeps playing even if he had the coins to buy the last card.
He buys two cards: the last one and a totally useless no-victory-point-awarding card.

Then I tell him during his last turn that he could end the game and he knows it and I will blacklist him for that.
His reply is "not my fault if you plaid SHIT"

I think this is a double abusive behaviour.
Abuse 1: you keep on playing when you can end the game, leading me to resign to end it quickly.
Abuse 2: use of the word SHIT in chatroom.

I'm sick of this.
I'll be quitting soon if nothing changes.

Offline Rabid

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #16 on: 01 August 2018, 10:44:43 AM »
It is sometimes quicker to buy a random card, than it is to move mouse to the end turn button.

Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #17 on: 25 August 2018, 09:24:19 PM »
I am really sick of the people here.
With one last province to buy, and having already 8 in hand, this player went on remodelling stuff and the like.
I really have grown a real hate towards these people, and since the game is becoming toxic because of problem people, I think I will be done with this server soon.

Offline jsh

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #18 on: 25 August 2018, 09:45:12 PM »
In other words, summer's ending and you have to go back to school?

Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #19 on: 26 August 2018, 11:01:43 AM »
In other words, summer's ending and you have to go back to school?

Comments like this one are evidence I am right.

Offline Ingix

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #20 on: 28 August 2018, 09:38:15 AM »
I agree that reply by jsh was uncalled for and not helping. Demeaning somebody by 'accusing' them of a perceived younger age is a standard 'bad' rethoric method that shouldn't be used in an argument.

OTOH, if you say that you are "sick of the people here" and have "grown a real hate towards these people", you might elicit a response from "the people here" that is also not just rosy.

I can understand your frustrations with some of the behaviour you described. But if you know you are loosing, then having to wait a few more seconds for the opponent to finish in his way doesn't seem much of a problem, as you can resign (and then blacklist).

Again, I don't want to see anyone leave the game because they see the community generally as broken/toxic. It just happens that my personal experience (which is probably different from those of a non-paying player, and of course also not representative of all paying players) is that the community has the usual outliers, but generally works.

Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #21 on: 28 August 2018, 11:22:08 AM »
I agree that reply by jsh was uncalled for and not helping. Demeaning somebody by 'accusing' them of a perceived younger age is a standard 'bad' rethoric method that shouldn't be used in an argument.

One thing that I perceive, both here in the forum and in the game itself, is that abuses are not punished. In another forum this behaviour would have led to at least a public warning.
I feel like moderation here is somewhat passive, like as if mods are simply very afraid of losing paying players, so they have a very special treatment or rules of their own.

OTOH, if you say that you are "sick of the people here" and have "grown a real hate towards these people", you might elicit a response from "the people here" that is also not just rosy.

I can understand your frustrations with some of the behaviour you described. But if you know you are loosing, then having to wait a few more seconds for the opponent to finish in his way doesn't seem much of a problem, as you can resign (and then blacklist).

This is actually what I do. But is it that possible that I play online games since 20 years and this is the first game in which my blacklist hosts more than 40 players?
I mean, I have new additions every single day I play!

Again, I don't want to see anyone leave the game because they see the community generally as broken/toxic. It just happens that my personal experience (which is probably different from those of a non-paying player, and of course also not representative of all paying players) is that the community has the usual outliers, but generally works.

I agree that different people have different perceptions. On the other hand some little consideration that little or no moderation of undesiderable behaviours can lead to a slightly toxic community should be held in account.

Offline AdamH

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #22 on: 28 August 2018, 01:21:41 PM »
Say whatever you want about Fastman, he has some excellent points in his last post and these are real issues.

Jsh has acted in an official capacity at many points in the past. Ironically, his contributions to the software were mostly directed at removing trolls from the community. So this message and the lack of official followup regarding it pretty strongly indicates that Shuffleit doesn't give a crap about its community, which I would say is accurate.

Offline Stef

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #23 on: 28 August 2018, 02:37:31 PM »
We have different views about keeping a community healthy. You seem to think the solution is in punishment; I fundamentally do not believe in it.

If I would, I would have removed Fastman (aka DominionTroll, TheAnnoyer, ...) from this forum some time ago, and probably Adam along with him. Both of you say something useful from time to time, but in my personal opinion it just doesn't make up for the negativity you produce along with it. I also can't believe that it is an attitude that helps you more then it hurts you in the rest of your life.

Feel free to continue doing whatever you like doing though, my belief in free speech is much stronger then my desire to control. The fact that I don't respond to many of these discussions does not imply that I don't care - I just don't really see a merit in having these kinds of arguments over the internet. Criticizing the volunteers is a good way to call me out, or so it seems.

Personally I do enjoy playing games against this community a lot; talking on dominion discords is also good fun and almost exclusively with nice people.

Offline AdamH

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #24 on: 28 August 2018, 03:00:54 PM »
I'm going to put all of the personal things aside because they are irrelevant.

1. So in your opinion, do you think what jsh said is OK?

2. Your experience interacting with the community is vastly different from the experience of a new player. The experience of a new player is extremely important because it allows you to get more money, which allows you to hire more people to finish implementing the software. I imagine you aren't paying to use your own software so I'm really not sure how your own experience is relevant.

3. However you choose to interpret the positivity or negativity of what I say, does this mean that you're just ignoring the feedback I give on your software? If someone has a bad experience with your software because they've paid for it and there's a problem (the lag has been absolutely brutal lately and I just can't play at all over the past several weeks, for example) then if they're a bit salty when they tell you about it, does that mean you just throw it away? I want this software to be good because I want to play Dominion; I want you to succeed because it benefits me. Do you really think I want you to fail?

If you aren't going to listen to my feedback because you don't like me, then just ban me. I have better things to do with my time.

Offline Ingix

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #25 on: 28 August 2018, 04:17:02 PM »
One thing that I perceive, both here in the forum and in the game itself, is that abuses are not punished. In another forum this behaviour would have led to at least a public warning.
I feel like moderation here is somewhat passive, like as if mods are simply very afraid of losing paying players, so they have a very special treatment or rules of their own.

Now let's put things in perspective. He called you a (college) kid. He didn't use racial or sexual slurs, or suggested any kind of harm should come to you. That's what I'd call abuse, and have been sent (few) examples of as moderator. jsh was unfriendly which he shouldn't have been. I don't think however any punishment for that would be appropriate (you might disagree, of course).

But is it that possible that I play online games since 20 years and this is the first game in which my blacklist hosts more than 40 players?
I mean, I have new additions every single day I play!

Of course that is not a good experience. But from the incidents you describe, it seems you blacklist players for what I'd call annoying behaviour. That is your right, of course, but I fail to see how it translates into a generally abusive/toxic environment.

It may still not be good for the community when many players consider many others annoying, but that's what happens when you have strangers meet! One player wants a deep match and lots of thinking, and another wants to kill 10 min before the next meeting.


Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #26 on: 28 August 2018, 04:30:39 PM »
If I would, I would have removed Fastman (aka DominionTroll, TheAnnoyer, ...) from this forum some time ago, and probably Adam along with him. Both of you say something useful from time to time, but in my personal opinion it just doesn't make up for the negativity you produce along with it. I also can't believe that it is an attitude that helps you more then it hurts you in the rest of your life.

I think that relating a forum username to an account while in this forum as soon as you write "xxxdominionplayer did that" you blank the name, is a very plain crystal clear use of double standards. Users can't do it, you shouldn't do that in first instance.

I have been, and I still am, in charge of many forums and Facebook groups and this over the past 20 years, and believe me when I say that I learnt two things about being an admin.
While 1) you do not allow people questioning what you do because you can put the word "final" everytime everywhere, and that will give you authority 2) you don't do something you forbid other people to, because that will weaken your authoritativeness. And if you want people to populate your forum and game, you will need both Authority AND Authoritativeness, but relying on the first only will have people flee and quit, relying more on the second will have this a more healthy community.

That said, yep, I started the troll account in order to see how much and how good the "**shol* control system" was by faking to be one. Actually I have trolled or annoyed people just a few of times, and zero in the last two months, I don't find it entertaining. If I were able to change the account name to something different I would have.

On the other hand, my blacklist is really full. Problem is not just only people having the tendency to teabag. They really do that. There is aboslutely NO need to teabag your opponent. If I can buy the last curse and that will end the game in victory for me, I don't even start the turn. I end actions buy last curse and greet my opponent.

But that's not just the point, because if it was only teabagging I would have 15/20 people in my blacklist. Not 50.
There are people slowplaying on purpose. People cussing and insulting. People calling you lucky when you aren't or people unable to admit a game ended out of pure luck when it actually did (though I don't blacklist for this reason and I find it pretty negative to call out the luck factor, except when it's totally manifest, which happens.

One other thing: there are people doing something different on a different browser window while you wait their turn for playing. This is mostly annoying. More than anything.
This could be also fixed by changing the timeout to a lower value than 4 minutes if they haven't focus on the Dominion window

My time is precious. If you find out people stealing from you does this enrage you? Surely it does.
Stealing time is even worse. You can work out or win your money back but you will never get your time back.
People robbing you of your time, while you are playing and waiting for them to play, are toxic.

One time can happen, two can happen, but too often it is manifest that people are doing something entirely different while you play against them. This behaviour should be discouraged in some way.

So while you treat me most as a negative person which put only negative thoughts, I actually think I gave you something entirely different to think about. And since you seem to be an intelligent person, you surely have already started.

Cheers.

Offline limetime

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #27 on: 28 August 2018, 05:02:39 PM »
That said, yep, I started the troll account in order to see how much and how good the "**shol* control system" was by faking to be one.
My time is precious.
I find it hard for both these statements to be true.

Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #28 on: 28 August 2018, 05:35:10 PM »
That said, yep, I started the troll account in order to see how much and how good the "**shol* control system" was by faking to be one.
My time is precious.
I find it hard for both these statements to be true.

Yeah I can get the point that you don't care about the community. I tried whatever to sort things out, from complaining in the forum to embody the people I dislike to see what would have happened. I spent some time doing this but actually that is MY time I dispose of it the way I want and surely I never slowplaied. I just typed stuff in the chat window. If people didn't want to lose time over me, like many did, ignoring has always been an option.

Thanks for allowing me to point out what could be a contradiction to a very inattentive person.

Offline SamE

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #29 on: 28 August 2018, 06:38:21 PM »
How do we know you’re not still trolling us?

Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #30 on: 28 August 2018, 07:55:31 PM »
How do we know you’re not still trolling us?

Easy. If I were still a troll I would have no benefits in having my blacklist full. Trolls have fun sticking with the same people.

Offline irata

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #31 on: 29 August 2018, 02:49:37 AM »
Giving us a mute would be a great start.   (easy to do I am pretty sure)   

I have said this before but it would be nice if you tried an algorithm to detect people
slow playing.  Someone taking the max time for playing each card wouldn't be that hard to detect. 
(It happens to me all the time with the trolls or with people that wanted an undo)

Maybe even half their available time for playing each card every time they take X seconds to play a card.

I have also asked for this before and I will try again, please give us an option to have games *without* undo.

I very rarely had all the problems that I have on here back in the Isotropic days.  The interface was faster, people were nicer, the server never bogged down, and there was a mute.  It has been running very slow on me at times the past few days. 

There are children that play on here but offensive language is not bleeped out.  (It should be IMO)

Give us a chance to see the cards and splits before starting, so we can decide if we want to play that game.

An option to match with faster players would be awesome as well.  (I have asked for this before)

A way to submit a chat log and the detailed game log showing how fast each person took for each click would be perfect to try to slow down the trolls.  Of course you need people to review those logs, not sure if you have them.

Thanks!   





Offline Fastman

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #32 on: 29 August 2018, 07:18:42 AM »
-cut-
I very rarely had all the problems that I have on here back in the Isotropic days.  The interface was faster, people were nicer, the server never bogged down, and there was a mute.  It has been running very slow on me at times the past few days. 
-cut-

Thanks man. You made my day. I toally forgot the name of the server I played on before this one. Isotropic. I NEVER had problems there. Should be taken as an example.

Offline apostolosoruler

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #33 on: 10 September 2018, 10:32:35 AM »
I would just like to say that I have seen many things, that suggest that this community is not broken. The main one being the fact that you can spectate top players, learn by them, ask them questions (even stupid ones, especially when you are new to the game) and consistently receive positive high-learning yield answers in a very polite way. So maybe from time to time you encounter some bad behaviour, but i seriously doubt (from my own experience) that this is frequent enough to guarantee such an opinion.

Offline Xorxoron

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Re: This community is broken
« Reply #34 on: 12 September 2018, 01:29:04 AM »
From time to time there are opponents who are just bad losers, insulting you or calling you a lucker even if you are clearly just playing the better deck at this moment. Most of the time I just laugh about this childish attitude. If one of them exaggerates this behaviour, I just tell it and the player gets on my banned list.

But playing a few games every day, I wouldn't say it's a real problem here. Most of the players are polite, helpful or don't use the chat at all. The trolls and/or bad losers are far outnumbered by normal users in my experience.

You mentioned slow playing: I think it's hard to set the limit here. In a game like Dominion it's necessary to think about your next step a few seconds from time to time. Thats especially true for beginners. I had annoying opponents who, especially when they fell back, tried to put me under pressure by writing "play faster!" when I thought just a few seconds what to play/buy next. These folks go on my blacklist immediately.