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Author Topic: Communication about these updates  (Read 433 times)

Offline AdamH

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Communication about these updates
« on: 26 September 2018, 03:50:09 PM »
I've been really happy with the changes to the client that came along with the previews. Yes the previews are fun and awesome but in my mind the best part about all of this are the much-needed improvements that came along with it.

I really wish that there had been some communication about this before this week. For several months there hasn't been any indication that anything at all had been worked on. There wasn't even a response to threads that asked for updates. No list of features that were planned for the next release. I honestly thought that development work on the Dominion client had been abandoned and that Renaissance wouldn't be available in time.

It would have been a huge deal if there had been some communication, anything at all.

Offline markus

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #1 on: 26 September 2018, 04:04:45 PM »
Not that I fully disagree with your assessment that more communication would be better, but that work is done apart from Renaissance was in the release notes 3 weeks ago.


Offline Ingix

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #2 on: 26 September 2018, 04:32:14 PM »
The pitfalls of announcing things early is that this creates expectations that may be disappointed later. For example, one feature was 'cut' shortly before the preview weak due to problems, I hope it can be done in a different form soon. If it had been announced, the disappointment might have overshadowed what was actually achieved.

A new expansion is often a catalyst, because some things just have to be done, like the autoplay for Changeling that created much more autoplays.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #3 on: 26 September 2018, 11:33:58 PM »
Not that I fully disagree with your assessment that more communication would be better, but that work is done apart from Renaissance was in the release notes 3 weeks ago.

...and look at the release notes before that. There have only been minor bug fixes and language additions for the entirety of 2018, with a huge lapse of anything at all of substance for five months before that update. Not to mention that the one feature related to split piles for the kingdom viewer which went live a couple weeks ago wasn't even mentioned (this feature is by FAR the one that improves the quality of my life the most, though I understand that may not hold true for everyone).

These features are way more significant than everything that's been done (or even talked about) all year. I understand you want to not make promises you can't keep, but there has been absolutely nothing at all recently to indicate that this was coming. I'm not saying the updates need to be detailed at all, but as I said before, anything at all to make me feel like the devs aren't completely abandoning new features for the client would have gone a long way.

Offline markus

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #4 on: 27 September 2018, 08:21:11 AM »
Just saying that the constructive part of your feedback might be taken more seriously if you were not suggesting at the same time that there was any reasonable fear or chance that there wouldn't be work on Renaissance / it wouldn't be released on time.

Because in all the places I follow Dominion the answer since the announcement of Renaissance has always been that the plan is to do the same kind of previews as last year for Nocturne. And there was not any doubt in the last month that this would happen.

Offline Chris is me

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #5 on: 27 September 2018, 01:54:26 PM »
This is a really nitpicky criticism, if I'm gonna be honest with you. Stef and the developers haven't been pretending to not be doing any work, or whatever you're implying - maybe that was your preconception? They talk about doing work, if you ask you can learn they're working, they have a Discord channel, etc etc.

So far, whenever they talk about features loudly, well in advance, they get an endless stream of criticism of why it's not all there yet. If they hold off on formally announcing features until they exist, they get this criticism from you about how dare they add features without previously notifying everyone / you. There's no way they can win here.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #6 on: 27 September 2018, 05:01:24 PM »
Just saying that the constructive part of your feedback might be taken more seriously if you were not suggesting at the same time that there was any reasonable fear or chance that there wouldn't be work on Renaissance / it wouldn't be released on time.

Because in all the places I follow Dominion the answer since the announcement of Renaissance has always been that the plan is to do the same kind of previews as last year for Nocturne. And there was not any doubt in the last month that this would happen.

Was the ever announced here? If so, show me a link and I'll happily drop it. I'm looking for something other than the initial promise from 2016 where they said all expansions would always be on time.

This is a really nitpicky criticism, if I'm gonna be honest with you. Stef and the developers haven't been pretending to not be doing any work, or whatever you're implying - maybe that was your preconception? They talk about doing work, if you ask you can learn they're working, they have a Discord channel, etc etc.

So far, whenever they talk about features loudly, well in advance, they get an endless stream of criticism of why it's not all there yet. If they hold off on formally announcing features until they exist, they get this criticism from you about how dare they add features without previously notifying everyone / you. There's no way they can win here.

Every day of my life I develop software. Every day of my life I report my status to a manager or my customer. I write weekly, bi-weekly, and monthly status reports when I'm a technical lead so my customers know I'm not taking their money and wasting it. The bolded section is something I did not say and I don't appreciate you putting words in my mouth.

Honestly I just want someone to show me something somewhere, anywhere, that indicated that these things were coming and give me a reason other than blind faith in Shuffleit that any new features were coming at all. If you can show me that I will retract what I said but not a moment sooner.

Offline amoffett11

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #7 on: 27 September 2018, 07:56:25 PM »
You don't even get weekends off?  Sounds rough

Offline markus

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #8 on: 27 September 2018, 09:09:14 PM »
Was the ever announced here? If so, show me a link and I'll happily drop it. I'm looking for something other than the initial promise from 2016 where they said all expansions would always be on time.
Why is the burden of proof on Stef here?
A main selling point in giving the license to him was that expansions would arrive on time. He has delivered with Empires / second edition and Nocturne. Why should this time be different?

Where is anyone asking publicly or doubting that it would be the case before you bring that up here?

You might have known longer about Renaissance, but his announcement I linked above was about 1 month after the official announcement. And when people asked before that, the answer has always been that there would be previews. But I'm not going to look for such posts.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #9 on: 27 September 2018, 09:38:04 PM »
Was the ever announced here? If so, show me a link and I'll happily drop it. I'm looking for something other than the initial promise from 2016 where they said all expansions would always be on time.
Why is the burden of proof on Stef here?

Not on Stef. I'm being put through the wringer because I said I was worried development of new features had stopped and renaissance wouldn't be available on time, and other people here are telling me "No, Adam, it's everywhere! Everyone knew it was coming!" and I have seen nothing of that sort. I started this thread with nothing but praise for the updates I've seen recently (exactly the post you linked) and said that if these had been in development for a while that it would have been nice to hear about it. If there has been anything from Shuffleit (not other people who don't represent Shuffleit) to indicate that progress would be coming then I'd adjust what I said but right now I see no reason to question the assumption that progress might have completely stopped.


A main selling point in giving the license to him was that expansions would arrive on time. He has delivered with Empires / second edition and Nocturne. Why should this time be different?

Where is anyone asking publicly or doubting that it would be the case before you bring that up here?

... I mean, there are no posts indicating any progress for this year before the release I'm talking about, so I wouldn't bother looking for them if I were you. There were two times that people asked for an update and the response from Shuffleit wasn't exactly promising (from my brief search). This is what I have to go off of.

It's true that maybe I'm the first one to publicly speculate that new features or Renaissance wouldn't be happening but from my position that's a reasonable assumption to make and it wouldn't have even entered my mind if there had been some communication at all from Shuffleit to say that they were still around and planned to make improvements.

People seem to think that I hate Shuffleit and I want it to fail. This could not be farther from the case (this is because I personally believe that if Shuffleit does fail there won't be any online Dominion at all) and I'd like for someone to point to anything I've ever said anywhere to that effect. Let's just look at facts and evidence here and let's use that to try and make the user experience for Shuffleit's software better. We have a better time playing, and more people will use it which means Shuffleit can be more successful. Everyone wins. I'm not interested in anything else.

Honestly, why is it such a debate that they communicate more? What we have gotten is not close to what it should be and I don't see anyone arguing otherwise. Can there just be more of that in the future? No dry spells where no new features for several months?

Offline markus

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #10 on: 27 September 2018, 10:40:45 PM »
Ok, I did look for one quote now. See attached response from Donald X. from August 23rd. I'm sure that you would have gotten a similar response, if you had asked here or on Reddit.

Stef having to confirm that he (=Shuffle It) will implement Renaissance is on a similar level as having to confirm that the servers will still be running next week in my eyes.

And I said that some of your suggestions are helpful. But then you intersperse these claims or opinions between the lines that are just nonconstructive and generate bad atmosphere.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #11 on: 27 September 2018, 11:20:05 PM »
I agree with Adam that from the announcements (not) made, it is pretty easy to conclude that nothing (much) has happened in the last months. And it is not unreasonable to then express doubt about something like a new expansion happening on time, which is quite a different thing from doubting that an existing software version will still run in a few weeks.

As a tester it is often easy to forget that not everybody has the same information as oneself, and thus cannot judge the state of a project as oneself can do.

Offline AdamH

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #12 on: 28 September 2018, 12:38:23 AM »
Markus-

DXV does not speak for Shuffleit, does he?

In either case, I'm not going to dig through every conversation in every Discord channel ever to find a heartbeat for Shuffleit.

I'm not asking Stef to confirm that Renaissance is going to be implemented. I'm asking for someone from Shuffleit to give some indication in 2018 that new features are being worked on.

Not having the first is not a huge deal. Not having the second (and still not having it) is cause for concern. To say that I'm concerned like this is NOT non-constructive. I have very good reason to be concerned (even Ingix won't disagree with you here! And he speaks for Shuffleit) and any reasonable company (this includes Shuffleit) would be interested in hearing that. If my constructive feedback doesn't please you, I'm sorry. Frankly, I got my message across and I have better things to do than justify my perfectly good message to someone who doesn't have any stake in the matter. If you would like to continue this conversation I won't be replying here, you can PM me.

Offline markus

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #13 on: 28 September 2018, 08:40:54 AM »
All I'm saying is that you could have asked here, if you were really concerned about Renaissance being released or nothing being worked on. And you would have gotten a reply.
And I don't see any "silent majority" out there who had the same doubts as you but didn't dare to ask.

Offline JunkDealer

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Re: Communication about these updates
« Reply #14 on: 29 September 2018, 04:19:58 AM »
I don't see any "silent majority" out there who had the same doubts as you but didn't dare to ask.

Let me add my voice then.  When the only updates we've gotten on the company's primary forum has been something along the line of "things aren't progressing the way I want" and "no update on offline mode (yet?)".  It doesn't leave much room for hope.

I don't completely agree with the way it's been stated, but I have been continuously asking for updates since Shuffle it started.  I don't agree with the don't tell them we're working on something because if it doesn't come out they will get their pitchforks.  The issue is when you communicate one thing and then at the last minute say sorry it can't be done.  Instead continuous updates are best.

Again I'd love to see a periodic post of "We're working on this now... hoping for release in quarter x... stay tuned for updates" rather than radio silence.

Okay enough ranting....
Love the updates.  Keep em coming and keep up the hard work, but remember communication is key :)