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Author Topic: Den of Sin and Develop  (Read 277 times)

Offline SkyHard

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Den of Sin and Develop
« on: 12 October 2018, 09:50:51 PM »
Den of Sin and Develop in #19246241.
I Develop a Potion to a Den of Sin and it goes to the discard pile in turn 8. Is that a bug? Or does the Develop gain to the take precedence here?

Offline markus

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Re: Den of Sin and Develop
« Reply #1 on: 13 October 2018, 01:14:00 AM »
It should go to the draw pile, but I assume that's what you meant to write.
Develop indeed takes precedence: Den of Sin means that the card goes to hand instead of discard pile first. Develop then moves it to the top of the deck.

Offline SkyHard

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Re: Den of Sin and Develop
« Reply #2 on: 13 October 2018, 07:21:00 AM »
It should go to the draw pile, but I assume that's what you meant to write.

Yes, thanks.

Offline Stef

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Re: Den of Sin and Develop
« Reply #3 on: 13 October 2018, 11:40:57 AM »
It should go to the draw pile, but I assume that's what you meant to write.
Develop indeed takes precedence: Den of Sin means that the card goes to hand instead of discard pile first. Develop then moves it to the top of the deck.

Actually that's not how it works. It's not a two-step movement, it goes straight to the top of your deck.

Cards in Dominion specify a 'default gain location'. For almost all cards that is your discard pile, but there are a few exceptions like Den of Sin.

Most gainers ask the gained card where it wants to go. Develop however doesn't care about the preferences of the gained card: it just puts it on top of your draw pile.

Offline markus

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Re: Den of Sin and Develop
« Reply #4 on: 13 October 2018, 12:37:50 PM »
Almost...give me one more year and I'll also remember the details.  ::)

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Den of Sin and Develop
« Reply #5 on: 13 October 2018, 09:35:12 PM »
It should go to the draw pile, but I assume that's what you meant to write.
Develop indeed takes precedence: Den of Sin means that the card goes to hand instead of discard pile first. Develop then moves it to the top of the deck.

Marcus, WHY does Develop take precedence?  Is there some sort of default Dominion rule that applies here?  I'm thinking of Fortress, where--when it's trashed--seems to always go back into my hand, regardless of the wording/instructions on the other cards, which might call for the card to go into the discard pile, on top of my deck, etc..

I guess what I am really wondering is:  Is there a list of special card combos, where at least one instruction on Card One directly conflicts with an instruction on Card Two?  And, if so, is there an easy way of knowing which card's instructions takes priority?  Or is it a question of memorizing each of these oddities?

Offline markus

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Re: Den of Sin and Develop
« Reply #6 on: 13 October 2018, 10:14:22 PM »
I'm sure there's some official explanation out there.

The way I understand it is: cards have a default gain location. For most cards that is the discard pile, some are gained to your hand or the top of your deck. If something else instructs you to put it somewhere else, that takes precedence over the default location.
If you develop into a Silver: it's obvious to everyone that the silver goes to the top of your deck, even though the rules say that you put gained cards in your discard pile (Develop "overwrites" that rule.). The reason that it's less natural for Den of Sin is that the gain to hand is seen as a bonus that you lose when Develop puts it to the top of your deck instead. But it's the same overwriting of the default gain location.

Offline jeebus

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Re: Den of Sin and Develop
« Reply #7 on: 13 November 2018, 04:58:20 AM »
The default gain location is indeed your discard pile. Then cards can tell you to gain to somewhere else, for instance Develop tells you to gain to your deck.

Den of Sin says that it's gained to your hand instead of to your discard pile. You can view that as Den of Sin having a different default gain location. You can also view it as an effect that competes with Develop: Since Develop wants to put it on your deck, Den of Sin can't redirect itself to your hand instead of to your discard pile.

From my rules document (Renaissance cards not added yet):

Den of Sin, Ghost Town, Guardian and Night Watchman are gained to your hand instead of to your discard pile. But Armory, Artificier, Develop and Graverobber will instead gain them to your deck.
Nomad Camp is gained to your deck instead of to your discard pile. But Artisan, Cobbler, Transmogrify and Wish will instead gain it to your hand.