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Author Topic: Dominion Subcription Changes  (Read 475 times)

Offline littlestdube

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Dominion Subcription Changes
« on: 02 November 2018, 07:13:02 PM »
Hello everyone! I just noticed the changes(maybe not) about the subscription. I am wondering when did it change and also, no more yearly memberships at all? tyvm

Offline Ingix

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #1 on: 02 November 2018, 10:02:02 PM »
There were no changes to the subscription process since around Nocturne was added last year (one exception: You can buy 2 month worth of subscription since August). I think the last big change was that instead of selecting the exact day of expiration, now it is a selection from a bunch of preset durations. You can still by a subscription worth one year (at least I can).

If you were away for a very long time then maybe you're referring to your "free year 2017", which is over now
The 6 month prolongation for feedback usually ran out sometime in July.

If you can be more specific about the change you have in mind, I may be able to help!

Offline bananny

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #2 on: 14 November 2018, 01:38:40 AM »
I'm still pissed about paying for the game all over again, especially since IT'S BROKEN AGAIN :(  I only get on here to find ways to complain about it when the game isn't working.  So please fix it and you'll keep me away from the forum.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #3 on: 14 November 2018, 11:43:06 AM »
I can understand that you are unhappy with the game lagging and basically not working.

What I think you should understand (but I agree that as a paying costumer you may not want to accept) is that a 1-person team cannot guarantee availability 24/7, because they literally have to sleep some time. It's unfortunate that your time zone seems to be such that your playing hours coincide with Stef's sleeping hours.

Also I agree that an offline version would be very nice. I don't know if the hurdles are technical or otherwise.

Offline unco

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #4 on: 17 November 2018, 11:01:22 PM »
I purchased all the versions of dominion as we were told it was a one time buy when it first came out.  The game changed platforms a few times and each time got worse, which I stopped playing for a while wishing that one day it would be like the old game I used to play (purchased 8 expansions).  Today I decided to give it another go to find out that no longer do we own the games we purchase and have to buy a subscription to not even get access to the games we purchased, but a limited few.  I think we should be given credits for all the games purchased as we have to really buy them again.  It took me a while to put together decks I liked to play and I don't even see that as an option - if I had access to my purchased products.  Not happy at all.  We didn't even receive an email saying they were going to screw the members that actually paid to get this up and running.  There is no even a way to reach tech / sales support from the site - just a message board.  If I knew they were planning to keep trading platforms and then go to a pay as you go system then I wouldn't have purchased the products.  So not happy.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #5 on: 18 November 2018, 12:43:01 AM »
I understand that you are unhappy with the state of affairs.

But you have to understand that you should be unhappy with those whom you paid before and who didn't keep their promise of allowing you to play forever. They had the rights for a limited time, and didn't tell (or probably buried it in fine print).

The current version (Dominion Online from Shuffle iT) at least makes clear what happens: You get the right to play for a limited time. Sounds worse than "keep forever", it worse than "keep forever", but you and I and lots of other player learned that "keep forever" was never the truth.

Quote
I think we should be given credits for all the games purchased as we have to really buy them again.


At the start of 2017, when Shuffle iT took over, all previous purchasers got one year subscpription free of whatever expansions they had bought before. I guess from your comment that the email never reached you. That's obviously unfortunate, and we had previous reports of this happening in a few cases. But please keep in mind: Shuffle iT saw none of the money you had paid previously. While from your point of view (which I totally understand, I was in your shoes roughly 2 years ago), you paid for something and no longer have it, from Shuffle iT's view they had nothing to do with what happened before.

You can play the base game for free, Silver subscription (Intrigue, Seaside, Prosperity, Cornucopia, Hinterlands and Guilds) is ca. €2.10 per month, Gold subscription (Silver subscription + Alchemy, Dark Ages, Adventures, Empires, Nocturne, Renaissance) is ca. €3.80 per month.

Feel free to ask if something is unclear. Again, I understand your frustration, but the main point is that the reason for that lies *not* with Shuffle iT.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #6 on: 18 November 2018, 09:24:53 PM »
Ingix,
I agree with most of what you said, but I strongly (but respectfully  :) ) disagree with what seems to be an unspoken premise of yours.

"...from Shuffle iT's view they had nothing to do with what happened before..."

Well, yes and no.  Of course we all agree that Shuffle had nothing to do with the promises that had been made in the past...but ONLY in terms of making the initial promise.  I think we all agree that Shuffle IS 100% responsible for the decision to honor or not honor the promises that that Shuffle "inherited."  Now, this then becomes an economic decision and a moral decision. 

If Shuffle crunched the numbers and said to itself, "We can afford this, but only if 'lifetime' members are forced to make ongoing yearly payments--and we can NOT afford to do this if that universe of lifetime members never has to pay us again, or has to pay us only for future updates.", then that would of course have changed their business model.  And maybe Shuffle would not have successfully bargained for the Dominion rights.

If I had been Shuffle's lawyer at that time, I would have advised Shuffle at the beginning, "Hey, this is gonna be a PR nightmare.  People who paid for a lifetime membership before will understandably be pissed off.  So, let's be proactive.  We should get out in front of this.  Tell people, 'I wish we could honor all the past commitments under prior ownership.  But we can't.  We cannot afford to do this, and have, frankly, our most loyal and die-hard Dominion players not contributing.  If you great players got the game for free, forever, we'd have to charge new players double, and that will drive away those new players, which will drive us from running Dominion online.  We are not happy about the need to do this, we know that you are even less happy about this.  But we ask for your understanding.  This is the only way the business model will work.  And we want to make Dominion online an incredible success for years and years...[blah, blah, blah; normal PR statements.]"

Speaking as a lawyer (disclosure: my field of expertise has nothing to do with contract law, intellectual property law, or anything remotely related to this situation, so we all should take my observations with a healthy dose of skepticism.), I am actually very surprised that Shuffle was not required by law to honor the lifetime memberships.  As a general rule, this sort of lifetime membership is a pretty routine liability of certain types of businesses, and IS transferred when the business is sold.  I happen to have a lifetime membership to my gym.  If the gym is ever sold to new owners, I have every expectation that--regardless of the person/company that buys this gym--I will continue to have that lifetime membership.

If you have a 5-year car repair warranty from Bob's Autos, and Bob sells his business to Mary, then Mary WILL be forced to honor your warranty.  And Mary knows this (and about the 274 additional 5-year warranties that Bob has sold in the past) and has factored this into the price she was willing to pay to Bob, in order to buy his business--and his assets like his business good will.

There is an exception to this in American law, and that is: bankruptcy.  If the prior owner(s) of Dominion online had declared bankruptcy, then that judge would have had the authority to modify--or completely void--existing obligations, like people's 'lifetime subscriptions.'  But my understanding was that bankruptcy was not a factor in regards to the Shuffle purchase.  (And, if there *had* been a bankruptcy, all of us lifetime members would have had the chance to tell the bankruptcy judge, "Hey, we have this legal right and here's why we should be allowed to keep it, or get a full refund, or get a partial refund, etc.")

I am actually not convinced that prior lifetime members do not have a valid legal case.  But, to be honest, it's for such a small (relatively-speaking) amount, that I do not think anyone has the appetite to file suit.  And unless you could get it certified as a class action, there is an almost zero chance that any lawyer would be interested in representing you. 

For me; I get decent value for money paying the annual subscription.  So, Shuffle gets my money.  On the other hand; when other people ask me about Dominion online, I talk about how unethical I think it was to not honor the past contract, and so I guess that fractionally decreases the value of Shuffle's good will.  Shuffle obviously understands this, and is--on balance--happy enough with that trade-off.

I realize that this post might make it seems as though this is a huge issue for me.  It isn't.  It's not even a big issue.  It isn't.  It's merely a tiny issue, but one that still sticks in my craw.  And it's enough of a bother so that I will take 5 minutes to respond if I see a post that (in my mind) is suggesting that Shuffle was somehow an innocent bystander--someone that had no idea about these lifetime memberships before it bought the rights and was therefore blindsided when people started saying, "Hey, why aren't you honoring the lifetime membership I already paid for."

Shame on Shuffle, and shame on Donald X, for not anticipating this reaction.  Which is, in my opinion, a very normal and expected reaction.

Other people may disagree with me--and may strongly disagree, for all I know!!!--and that is fine.  I do not begrudge anyone who thinks Shuffle did nothing wrong.  Vive la difference!  :)

Offline LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #7 on: 19 November 2018, 05:36:47 AM »
ShuffleIt didn't buy the business from Making Fun. ShuffleIt is a completely different business which was allowed the rights to make Dominion Online after Making Fun flopped. They didn't inherit any promises made my the previous company(s), and they have no obligation (legal or ethical) to the players who played Making Fun's Dominion online, but they did allow a free year to people who had bought the cards on Making Fun. They did this to be nice (and for good PR obviously). They also did foresee that some people would have the angry response given by the OP and others in this thread, but Goko/Making Fun are the ones who broke their promise, not ShuffleIt.

And ShuffleIt is doing a very good job producing Dominion online compared to Making Fun, especially considering ShuffleIt is only one person. It's unfortunate the ShuffleIt gets all the angry responses that should be directed at Making Fun.

And BTW, Donald X doesn't deserve any of the blame for this either. It's not like different companies are competing to be the ones to make Dominion Online. IIRC, Donald said that probably if ShuffleIt didn't get the rights to Dominion Online, then no one would have them and we would have no legal online Dominion implementation. And this is because ShuffleIt was the only entity who wanted the rights to make Dominion Online and demonstrated that they were able to.

Tell people, 'I wish we could honor all the past commitments under prior ownership.  But we can't.  We cannot afford to do this, and have, frankly, our most loyal and die-hard Dominion players not contributing.  If you great players got the game for free, forever, we'd have to charge new players double, and that will drive away those new players, which will drive us from running Dominion online.  We are not happy about the need to do this, we know that you are even less happy about this.  But we ask for your understanding.  This is the only way the business model will work.  And we want to make Dominion online an incredible success for years and years...[blah, blah, blah; normal PR statements.[/i]]"
ShuffleIt actually did give a message to this effect when they started their Dominion online.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #8 on: 19 November 2018, 07:47:29 AM »
ShuffleIt didn't buy the business from Making Fun. ShuffleIt is a completely different business which was allowed the rights to make Dominion Online after Making Fun flopped. They didn't inherit any promises made my the previous company(s), and they have no obligation (legal or ethical) to the players who played Making Fun's Dominion online,

Yes, Shuffle is a different company.  But I do not think it is as clear-cut a case as you do.  (And for all I know; your conclusion is the correct one...I already acknowledged that this is not an area of law I practice.)

Your argument seems to be, "When MF flopped, any legal obligations it had were voided, as though there had been a discharge via bankruptcy."  I do not think this is correct as a matter of law.  Although it is quite possible that--if there *were* any legal rights--such legal rights could be asserted only against MF and not against Shuffle.  That seems plausible.

Since I doubt anyone will actually take this to court, it remains an interesting legal question, and one that (I suspect) no court will actually definitively answer.

I agree that Shuffle is doing, overall, a very good job.  We are giving Shuffle our money because, again on balance, we feel like it's a fair price for what we are getting.  It is my hope that, at some point, there will be more than one person working (I am taking your word that there is only one person at present working at Shuffle), which will allow for (naturally) more work to be done, as well as better/quickly communication with us paying members.

And, by the way, I completely disagree with you that Donald X is blameless.  He was the one person who negotiated the deal with Shuffle.  And OF COURSE he could have insisted, as part of the deal, "Hey, you're gonna have to honor all the lifetime memberships that people paid out to MF."  And then Shuffle would have factored that into the price it was willing to pay.

Now, I understand that it might have been impossible to make a deal under that restriction.  And that might have been why Donald threw us under the bus (if you take my side of the argument).  It might have been a perfectly reasonable business and economic decision...that without ending the lifetime memberships, there might now be no online Dominion at all.

But it seems a bit weird (and logically inconsistent) to give DVX the credit for keeping Dominion online, but none of the brickbats for the decisions that hit many of us in the pocketbook.  That sort of double standard would be something we get to see from President Donald "It's all me if things go well, and it's all you if things go badly" Trump.  It's not fair to ascribe such ass-hattery to Donald, and I suspect (hope??) that he's perfectly willing to accept blame for his bad business decisions, just as he should be willing to accept praise for his good decisions.

Offline josh bornstein

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #9 on: 19 November 2018, 07:51:05 AM »
Damn, our prex and Donald X have the same first name.  To be clear, our president is a bit of an ass-hat.  It's not fair to assume that Donald X is similarly a jerk...my assumption was, has been, and is that Donald X--on the other hand--is in fact working in good faith and has made both good and bad business decisions.  As everyone on earth will sometimes to do, of course.

Offline bananny

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #10 on: 21 November 2018, 04:00:09 AM »
And, by the way, I completely disagree with you that Donald X is blameless.  He was the one person who negotiated the deal with Shuffle.  And OF COURSE he could have insisted, as part of the deal, "Hey, you're gonna have to honor all the lifetime memberships that people paid out to MF."  And then Shuffle would have factored that into the price it was willing to pay.

You sir and almost everything you said... seriously, effing awesome!  Thank you.  I'm not an attorney, but I am a certified paralegal (you're just that much cooler than me).  I only came back to the forum because of temporary lag (that seems to have gone away) so I could complain more about paying for a game that doesn't work most of the time, since the only reason I visit the forum is to make points about having to pay for a game I already paid for all over again and it doesn't effing work!  I stuck around to read what you had to say and I enjoyed it.  I think you made some very excellent points.  Thank you.

Offline Ingix

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #11 on: 21 November 2018, 10:46:48 AM »
... I could complain more about paying for a game that doesn't work most of the time,

Let's just say you and I seem to have incompatible definitions of what "most of the time" means.

Offline bananny

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Re: Dominion Subcription Changes
« Reply #12 on: 04 December 2018, 03:10:44 AM »
It's unfortunate that your time zone seems to be such that your playing hours coincide with Stef's sleeping hours.

Here we are again.  So, since the subscription I pay for is primarily used when I am done with work and eating dinner, around 6pm - 10pm frame in my time zone and this is a time when there is NO support, does that mean that people in my time zone (mountain time, USA) get a partial refund on their subscriptions due to below ideal playing conditions with NO SUPPORT?

Lag, lag, lag, lag, lag.... This is really effing frustrating.  If I didn't have to pay for it... AGAIN... I wouldn't be complaining so much.  This is unacceptable.